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UMW President places "man with a gun" test call

fully_armed_biker

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bohdi wrote:
Mt Vernon .40 wrote:
fully_armed_biker wrote:
... as anyone with ANY military experience will tell you, there also should have been coordination with various dept heads and other key personnel to monitor and observe ...

... Without knowingand documenting EXACTLY what happened at EVERY level of the chain of command during the drill, it makes the drill completely and utterly useless...
+1

Planning and executing meaningful and realistic exercises -- especially in scenarios potentially involving significant safety risks -- is far more difficult than the actual act of "responding."

Anyone with any military experience will also tell you that if you fail to stop the aggressor that looks bad on your fit rep.....so it helps to know before hand what's going on....

This type of excercise is completely justified. If the cops know something is going to happen ahead of time, they will naturally be on a higher level of alert and responsiveness - even if they don't know the "where". The campus isn't that big. It would be easy to prestage your responding assets for a week if you knew an event was planned for that week, but not what particular day or time.

The only way to get real information is with a limited amount of people knowing what is going on and auditing the system afterward. The headmaster did that, only he and the actor in play knew what was going on.

That's why I saiddepartment heads and other key individuals should have been informed...I didn't say to send a memo out to theentire school saying there was going to be a drill. The only monitoring of the drill was done by one person, in one location...the "victim"...do you really think shehas an accurateassessment of all of the actions that took place from the time she picked up the phone to the time the first responder was on scene? Not hardly. Allshe hasis an ill conceived, half assed, attempt at a drill with no real hard data to draw conclusions from, on what to change to try to improve upon. All she really knows for fact is that it took some 6 minutes from the time she picked up the phone till somebody was there...period.

Any drill I was ever a part of in the military, and still a part of now, as I've worked for the Army's Training and Doctrine Commandas a contractor for over 12 years, more than one person has known there was going tobe a drill, with observers in place beforehand, without the responders necessarily knowing there was even going to be a drill at all...that is not the case in this instance.
 

paramedic70002

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TFred wrote:
.

"If they knew that there was going to be a test call they would've been ready for it," he said. "That's not what's going to happen when there's an actual emergency."

Well, color me stupid, but they should have "been ready for it" because they are campus police, not because they had advance notice.

Basically he's saying that the campus police WILL NOT BE READY FOR AN ACTUAL EMERGENCY!
 

bohdi

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fully_armed_biker wrote:
That's why I saiddepartment heads and other key individuals should have been informed...I didn't say to send a memo out to theentire school saying there was going to be a drill. The only monitoring of the drill was done by one person, in one location...the "victim"...do you really think shehas an accurateassessment of all of the actions that took place from the time she picked up the phone to the time the first responder was on scene? Not hardly. Allshe hasis an ill conceived, half assed, attempt at a drill with no real hard data to draw conclusions from, on what to change to try to improve upon. All she really knows for fact is that it took some 6 minutes from the time she picked up the phone till somebody was there...period.

Any drill I was ever a part of in the military, and still a part of now, as I've worked for the Army's Training and Doctrine Commandas a contractor for over 12 years, more than one person has known there was going tobe a drill, with observers in place beforehand, without the responders necessarily knowing there was even going to be a drill at all...that is not the case in this instance.
Look at it as if you would an experiment, any experiment. You have a control group, you have your test cases. There are plenty of real life test cases documented by the responsible security forces that point to a poor response time. In this instance, it sounds like someone did something intentionally and timed it. By doing so, they can go back through radio calls and transcripts like you can get through FOIA. Your going to tell me that stuff doesn't exist?

I don't know how the Army conducts drills, I'll give you that. Maybe they do a better job than the Navy and Marines. I do know that it is human nature to not want to screw your buddies over, and I do know that the more people know about a drill situation, the more likely it is word will get out. I also know that at a certain point during a drill, people find out it is a drill, and don't react 100% the same way they would if they knew it wasn't a drill.

Does that change the fact that what was done is a crime that was committed no matter what the intentions are? No, I don't think so. Does it make the method used to evaluate the test case less valid? No I don't think so, I think it makes it a truer version of the event. All they have to do now is compare that response time to all the other response times - and know they really have a problem. Just like that high school in California.
 

user

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bohdi wrote:
...
Does that change the fact that what was done is a crime that was committed no matter what the intentions are? No, I don't think so. ...

Interesting that you simply assume that a crime was committed. I thought whether or not a crime had been committed was the question under debate. What facts and circumstances do you know about that haven't been discussed so far that makes you think a crime was committed?

By the way, since I last weighed in on this issue, I've come to the conclusion that the UMW president has a cause of action for libel per se against anyone who said she'd committed a crime. If you feel a crime has been committed, you can go to the police or the magistrate and tell them, and that's not actionable unless it be done maliciously and with an ulterior purpose. But if you accuse a person of a criminal offense for which a term of imprisonment would be warranted, and that is not in fact a true statement, you could be looking a lawsuit.
 

bohdi

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User, Everyone is accountable for their actions no? My statement is based on the statue TFred provided, which you indicate doesn't apply in this case. By that line of thinking, she wouldn't be held accountable for causing panic by shouting FIRE in a theater when there was none, because it is a "drill"; and wouldn't have to tell anyone ahead of time because of her position.
 

user

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Being held accountable is one thing; being criminally responsible is another. Seems like an employment matter to me. Something the Board of Governors ought to consider.
 

bohdi

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It will be interesting to see what happens. Not alot of useful public information on the UMW website about polices, enforcement, departmental structure regarding the law enforcement/public safety and presidents roles/responsibilities. I think that if the campus LEO's are the only ones involved, nothing will happen. Maybe if local PD/State is called in something might happen, but if you look at it from the perspective that technically it's private property, they can do whatever they want. You don't HAVE to be there.
 

fully_armed_biker

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bohdi wrote:
fully_armed_biker wrote:
That's why I saiddepartment heads and other key individuals should have been informed...I didn't say to send a memo out to theentire school saying there was going to be a drill. The only monitoring of the drill was done by one person, in one location...the "victim"...do you really think shehas an accurateassessment of all of the actions that took place from the time she picked up the phone to the time the first responder was on scene? Not hardly. Allshe hasis an ill conceived, half assed, attempt at a drill with no real hard data to draw conclusions from, on what to change to try to improve upon. All she really knows for fact is that it took some 6 minutes from the time she picked up the phone till somebody was there...period.

Any drill I was ever a part of in the military, and still a part of now, as I've worked for the Army's Training and Doctrine Commandas a contractor for over 12 years, more than one person has known there was going tobe a drill, with observers in place beforehand, without the responders necessarily knowing there was even going to be a drill at all...that is not the case in this instance.
Look at it as if you would an experiment, any experiment. You have a control group, you have your test cases. There are plenty of real life test cases documented by the responsible security forces that point to a poor response time. In this instance, it sounds like someone did something intentionally and timed it. By doing so, they can go back through radio calls and transcripts like you can get through FOIA. Your going to tell me that stuff doesn't exist?

I don't know how the Army conducts drills, I'll give you that. Maybe they do a better job than the Navy and Marines. I do know that it is human nature to not want to screw your buddies over, and I do know that the more people know about a drill situation, the more likely it is word will get out. I also know that at a certain point during a drill, people find out it is a drill, and don't react 100% the same way they would if they knew it wasn't a drill.

Does that change the fact that what was done is a crime that was committed no matter what the intentions are? No, I don't think so. Does it make the method used to evaluate the test case less valid? No I don't think so, I think it makes it a truer version of the event. All they have to do now is compare that response time to all the other response times - and know they really have a problem. Just like that high school in California.

It is also human naturefor peopleto cover their own a$$...they make excuses, they lie. "No, I wasn't at the donut shop 6 blocks off campus when the call came in...I was checking through some bushes behind the stadium because I thought I saw something suspicious." "No, I wasn't at the female dorms hitting on some little 20 year old hottie...I was in a parking lot checking out a suspicious looking car." The responding officer's response to any questions asked are going to be skewed...he's going to answer however he needs to to keep his job...and that's not necessarily going to mean he's going to answer with the truth. With observers, there is no question...."Officer Jones....you were seen standing in front of the female dorms talking to a female student when the call came in," or "...you were seen at the Krispy Kreme 6 blocks off campus."You can observe without the subjects knowing they're being observed...youhave dept heads or school administrative personnel observe and chances are they're not drinking buddies with Joe Schmuck, CampusCop/Dispatcher...If done correctly the responderswouldn't know it was a drill until they walked upon the "victim" standing there looking at her watch...the same as what happened; but, with a whole lot of HARD DATA (exactlocation of all personnel, dispatcher'sactions from the time call came in till he/she was done relaying it to the force, the exact route and anydeviances from policy and procedures taken by responders/dispatcher)to back it up.

Radio recordings/transcripts are great...Log books are great...but, without independent validation that the recordings/entries are correct...they're useless.

BTW - My military time was in the Navy...I work for the Army now...and the drills were done the same way.
 

bohdi

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I'm not disagreeing,having multiple sensors to collect data points is agood idea.You still need a baseline and you still need to have a margin of error.
 

bohdi

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Technically the President did that. Probably not the best or most organized version of it though :) It would have been better for a completely independent third party with no ties to the university to do the same thing, with the only one having knowledge being the President. Then no one would know it is a test.
 

fully_armed_biker

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Well...we could sit here and argue back and forth; but, you will never get me to believe that she has any clue what-so-ever on how to run an effective drill....she didn't know what she was doing.
 

TFred

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While I'm sure there are finer points to be made about the effectiveness and accuracy to a test like this, the point I was trying to bring out was simply that someone could have been killed in the process... and since I live in the area, and do occasionally attend events on campus, that someone could have been ME!

IMHO, there is simply no excuse for putting the lives of the students and neighboring community at grave risk for such a test.

I believe that is the purpose of having a law against making false reports, and whether or not she technically broke the law, it is certain that she put lives needlessly at risk. Along with all the gun free zones, I guess that is what college presidents do these days.

TFred
 

buster81

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TFred wrote:
While I'm sure there are finer points to be made about the effectiveness and accuracy to a test like this, the point I was trying to bring out was simply that someone could have been killed in the process... and since I live in the area, and do occasionally attend events on campus, that someone could have been ME!

IMHO, there is simply no excuse for putting the lives of the students and neighboring community at grave risk for such a test.

I believe that is the purpose of having a law against making false reports, and whether or not she technically broke the law, it is certain that she put lives needlessly at risk. Along with all the gun free zones, I guess that is what college presidents do these days.

TFred
+1. Your quote below makes perfect sense to me. During the process of racing to the scene of this false report at high speed, anyone in the area could have been mistaken as the "man that might have a gun".

TFred wrote:
If an open carrier had been walking along the street near there they would likely have been assaulted with deadly weapons, and possibly quite worse.
 

bohdi

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fully_armed_biker wrote:
Well...we could sit here and argue back and forth; but, you will never get me to believe that she has any clue what-so-ever on how to run an effective drill....she didn't know what she was doing.
I think you and I can come to agreement on that particular part :) She probably felt empowered to do so, being qualified though is another story.
 

fully_armed_biker

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bohdi wrote:
fully_armed_biker wrote:
Well...we could sit here and argue back and forth; but, you will never get me to believe that she has any clue what-so-ever on how to run an effective drill....she didn't know what she was doing.
I think you and I can come to agreement on that particular part :) She probably felt empowered to do so, being qualified though is another story.
+1 Agreed! :)
 

TFred

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Looks like UMW thinks they are above the FOIA laws... The article quotes many of the same players who are fighting against HB 79, which protects the personal information of CHP applicants.

Read the official "reason" at the bottom. If this ever gets in front of a judge, he's going to laugh it right out the door.

TFred

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2010/022010/02022010/524098/


UMW won't release call

February 2, 2010 12:35 am
BY JEFF BRANSCOME

The University of Mary Washington has classified President Judy Hample's emergency call to campus police last fall as "evidence related to a criminal investigation," even though it was a test.

That's the reason UMW gave for declining a Virginia Freedom of Information Act request by The Free Lance-Star to obtain a copy of the recording of Hample's call--made during a campus safety walk in September.

However, several experts on public records disagree with the university's interpretation of the law.

"If it didn't end up being a criminal matter, then it ain't a criminal investigation," said Maria Everett, executive director of the Virginia Freedom of Information Advisory Council.

She called UMW's reason for withholding the record a "broad reading" of the law. "FOIA requires a narrow construction of any exemption from disclosure," Everett wrote. The council is a state agency that provides advisory opinions and training to state and local government officials, citizens groups and the media.

At the time of the incident, university police didn't know Hample's call from an emergency phone at the campus parking deck was a test. She reported that a man was preventing her from entering her car, and he may have a gun, witnesses said.

Torre Meringolo, UMW's vice president for advancement and university relations, noted that police responded as if a crime were in progress.

Hample's call, he said, "would've been evidence used in any criminal investigation, should it have gone further." Asked whether Hample was under a criminal investigation, he said no.

Some in the college community have characterized Hample's test as filing a false report and said she jeopardized student safety.

Others applauded her efforts to gauge police response times.

FOIA experts question the university's decision not to release the call, regardless of what people think of Hample's methods.

Ed Jones, editor of The Free Lance-Star, asked the university in an e-mail to reconsider its denial of the newspaper's request.

" The university's reasoning strikes me as being contrary to the spirit and letter of the FOI Act," he wrote. "After all, how can it be claimed that the unfounded call is part of a criminal investigation when it has been stated clearly that no crime was being committed against the caller?"

Megan Rhyne, executive director of the Virginia Coalition for Open government, said the university is "stretching the definition of an investigation."

In an e-mail, she added: "I am confused by the simultaneous characterization of this as a test and that it is part of a criminal investigation. Under this interpretation, every time police responded to a call, any records/recording made of that response could be considered an investigatory record, since police respond to every [most] calls with the assumption that there may be a criminal incident."

Ginger Stanley, executive director of the Virginia Press Association, said she "didn't know of any exemption that they should be able to cite for that information."

"This was a test of the university," she said. "The public has every right to hear exactly what was presented by the president."

The university reiterated its position in a statement last week from Director of Communications George Farrar. "While the evidence gathered pertaining to last fall's safety walk did not result in a criminal charge, this fact does not diminish the fact that the recording which you requested is evidence related to a criminal investigation and therefore is exempt."

Senior Assistant Attorney General Ronald Forehand, who represents UMW, declined to comment yesterday.

UMW is not legally required to withhold the record, even if it is exempt from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act.

Jeff Branscome: 540/374-5402
Email: jbranscome@freelancestar.com

UMW's response to The Free Lance-Star's Freedom of Information Act Request:

The Freedom of Information Act (Act) lists certain exclusions from the chapter, which permit agencies to withhold certain records. The records you have requested are excluded from the provisions of the Act. Specifically, Va. Code Ann. 2.2-3706(F)(1) excludes "complaints, memoranda, correspondence, case files or reports, witness statements, and evidence relating to a criminal investigation or prosecution, other than criminal incident information as defined in subsection A." There is one record, an audio recording, that meets the description of your request for "copies of the recordings." However, your request falls within the exclusion of 2.2-3706(F)(1), because it is evidence related to a criminal investigation. As a result, the records you requested are being entirely withheld.
 
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