Want to know what winds my clock too tight????

[MamaLiberty]

Marry Me Please!

I am honored, but a bit long in the tooth to consider such proposals. Oh, and much too independent.

 

[MamaLiberty]

OK, I'll ask the question.

What benefits should be extended to them?

The feds have the authority to "collect taxes" and as such the expenditure of those taxes is legitimate if the funds are expended only on those functions clearly identified in the constitution. You disagree with the constitution. No big deal.

I have a great idea...

Let's stop sending our sons and daughters, fathers and mothers to kill people and destroy places, economies. Let's stop allowing the politicians to play war games all over the planet, with other people's blood, treasure and future.

Let's all mind our own damn business instead of trying to control the entire world at gunpoint.

And no, the "feds" have no such legitimate authority.

 

[solus]

You did not answer that question.

apparently cuz i didn't appreciate your question was directed specifically towards me, but here ya go...

Because of constitutional limitations, military funding is appropriated in a discretionary spending account. (Such accounts permit government planners to have more flexibility to change spending each year, as opposed to mandatory spending accounts that mandate spending on programs in accordance with the law, outside of the budgetary process.)

The military budget is that portion of the discretionary United States federal budget that is allocated to the Department of Defense, or more broadly, the portion of the budget that goes to any military-related expenditures.


ipse

 

[Freedom1Man]

apparently cuz i didn't appreciate your question was directed specifically towards me, but here ya go...

Because of constitutional limitations, military funding is appropriated in a discretionary spending account. (Such accounts permit government planners to have more flexibility to change spending each year, as opposed to mandatory spending accounts that mandate spending on programs in accordance with the law, outside of the budgetary process.)

The military budget is that portion of the discretionary United States federal budget that is allocated to the Department of Defense, or more broadly, the portion of the budget that goes to any military-related expenditures.


ipse

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;


Explain where the government has authority to have a discretionary spending account as found in the creating and limiting document called, "The Constitution" of the united states.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

So, a heavy tax on imported, "goods," from China to encourage the purchase of domestic products, is a bad thing?

Yes. Protectionist mercanalism was one reason the so called founders were so po'd at mother England.

Why not run the costs up on countries who do not have the same standards for pollution, working conditions, etc, that we force upon domestic companies?

Sure as individuals, government not.

The idea behind the original taxing program is that NO-ONE would ever HAVE to ever pay 1 red cent for taxes directly or indirectly if they were not willing to. The taxing was supposed to be very limited in scope and nature in such a way that you could legally avoid taxes by not engaging in any of a set of limited privileged activities, such as making alcohol for the purpose of selling it, doing business as a foreigner, etc.

Yep and the tax wasn't to be heavy so as to discourage free trade. Hamiltonians and whigs tried to institute the british system and failed over and over, until the Republican party and Lincoln did it by force and blood.

The tax system was setup for only taxing land owners (at the state level) and then only those who paid taxes could vote. NOW, most people are being forced to pay in one way or another and that is why "everyone" can vote. Sadly, even those who only collect the money stolen from others in the form of improper taxes, can vote too. We also allow a special class of criminals to vote and our dead to vote too.

Yea, it's a hard situation, one reason why I think the state simply doesn't work it will always grow to tyranny, no matter what restrictions are put upon them, the state is our enemy.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

i have a great idea...

Let's stop sending our sons and daughters, fathers and mothers to kill people and destroy places, economies. Let's stop allowing the politicians to play war games all over the planet, with other people's blood, treasure and future.

Let's all mind our own damn business instead of trying to control the entire world at gunpoint.

And no, the "feds" have no such legitimate authority.

+1 qft!

 

[solus]

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

Explain where the government has authority to have a discretionary spending account as found in the creating and limiting document called, "The Constitution" of the united states.

do you have a cite for you two year limitation?

Congress has power under Article I, Section 8 to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare. Under the 16th Amendment, Congress can collect taxes on incomes that are derived from any source.

ipse

 

[sudden valley gunner]

do you have a cite for you two year limitation?

Congress has power under Article I, Section 8 to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare. Under the 16th Amendment, Congress can collect taxes on incomes that are derived from any source.

ipse

You do realize that those clauses have to remain within the enumerated powers listed and is not a general free for all we can do what ever we think we need to for defense and welfare?

 

[Freedom1Man]

do you have a cite for you two year limitation?

Congress has power under Article I, Section 8 to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare. Under the 16th Amendment, Congress can collect taxes on incomes that are derived from any source.

ipse

Gee, someone did not read the constitution today.... I will help you Article 1 Section 8.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

Section. 8.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

 

[Freedom1Man]

SNIP
Under the 16th Amendment, Congress can collect taxes on incomes that are derived from any source.

ipse

You're new here, there is a whole other thread that covers that subject, if you wish to learn more details, then find it.

In short The 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation. So, it does not allow for the taxing of the income or earnings of a citizen.

It also does not allow for the taxation of incomes at all, rather it limits the tax to the SOURCE of which the income is DERIVED.

That is the end of this, I am keeping this short to keep the peace on this forum.

 

[color of law]

You're new here, there is a whole other thread that covers that subject, if you wish to learn more details, then find it.

In short The 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation. So, it does not allow for the taxing of the income or earnings of a citizen.

It also does not allow for the taxation of incomes at all, rather it limits the tax to the SOURCE of which the income is DERIVED.

That is the end of this, I am keeping this short to keep the peace on this forum.

Correct.....

Constitutional income=gain=profit.

Moving on.....................Where have I heard that before???????

 

[solus]

forgive me Freedom, but perhaps you can provide a more insulting, degrading, and condensending talking down to someone else.

it isn't appreciated nor warranted as posts from this member have never indicated you were a savant or that federal way was missing you!

however, my perspective of you could change significantly quite quickly, however my personal posts directed towards you would still be posed as gracious, courteous, and respectful, cuz i am that kinda of person.

btw, thanks for the cite it was quite enlightening

ipse

 

[OC for ME]

I have a great idea...

Let's stop sending our sons and daughters, fathers and mothers to kill people and destroy places, economies. Let's stop allowing the politicians to play war games all over the planet, with other people's blood, treasure and future.

Let's all mind our own damn business instead of trying to control the entire world at gunpoint.

And no, the "feds" have no such legitimate authority.

Then vote for folks who will accomplish these goals. I do not desire my taxes to fund crap that does not provide a direct benefit, regardless of what the crap is.

 

[Gallowmere]

Then vote for folks who will accomplish these goals. I do not desire my taxes to fund crap that does not provide a direct benefit, regardless of what the crap is.

Your description of what is not acceptable is a bit vague. I actually see statements like this all of the time, but the problem is that "direct benefit" either has to be extremely vague, or extremely narrow.

I would ask, direct benefit to whom, or what? If your answer is "me, and others like myself", you'll be instantly written off as having too narrow, too selfish a focus. If your answer is "the greater good", well, now you've opened yourself up to support the status quo, because that's right where we are right now. The problem is that there is no general consensus for what the greater good really is, and it's led to a giant hodgepodge of ridiculous spending allocations. It's often justified with Part A is the common good, but Part A cannot survive without Part B, and Part B is a derivative of Part D, which ceases to function without the exclusion of Part C, and on and on and on.

 

[OC for ME]

True.

The constitution clearly establishes what taxes are supposed to be spent on. It does not get any more direct than that.

What congress has claimed beyond those items is where the "benefit who/what" part comes into play.

 

[Gallowmere]

True.

The constitution clearly establishes what taxes are supposed to be spent on. It does not get any more direct than that.

What congress has claimed beyond those items is where the "benefit who/what" part comes into play.

Even the constitution's wording is a bit on the vague side.

Take this from A1 S8 for example: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

When that is paired with the extremely vague "general welfare" wording, it opens things up to a ridiculous degree. In all reality, the constitution does very little limit a government that has no desire to be limited. The checks and balances cease to matter when all branches have decided to work toward the same goal, no matter what that goal may be. Hell, with enough support from the various legislatures, the second amendment could be done away with, just as the eighteenth was destroyed by the twenty-first.

 

[MamaLiberty]

Then vote for folks who will accomplish these goals. I do not desire my taxes to fund crap that does not provide a direct benefit, regardless of what the crap is.

Because every "vote" is an act of aggression, designed to impose the will of some on others. All politicians are completely invested in the "imposition" part, and none will ever accomplish anything toward individual liberty because they would then lose the power and bogus "authority" which means everything to them. That is exactly the same reason the non-voluntary "government" wants us all disarmed. They want to do things to us that we will not allow as long as we have guns.

http://javelinpress.com/hologram_of_liberty.html
Hologram of Liberty –The Constitution's Shocking Alliance With Big Government – is a cold splash of water on our civic mythology. Hologram's main contention is that the 1787 Convention, its Constitution and Federal Government was the most brilliant and subtle coup d'etat in political history. While the majority of Americans then were Jeffersonian in nature, a few Hamiltonian Federalists eradicated our Swiss-style Confederation and replaced it with a latent leviathan. The Federal Government was given several escape keys to the putative handcuffing by the Constitution. Using the "necessary and proper" and "general welfare" clauses in conjunction with congressional powers under treaty, interstate commerce, and emergency, the "Founding Lawyers" of 1787 purposely designed a constitutional infrastructure guaranteed to facilitate a future federal colossus. While such a massive government was impossible to erect in the freedom-conscious 1780's, the "virus" of tyranny was cunningly hidden within the Constitution to foment the eventual federal behemoth we are burdened with today. The feds take in a third of economic activity and regulate everything from the price of corn to the size of chimneys and it's all constitutional!" Oh, it's only 'constitutional' because autocratic Supreme Court Justices say it is!," some would reply.

Yes, but the Framers allowed the Supreme Court, without any check or balance, to approve of federal encroachment on the States and on the people. There is no constitutional avenue for overturning a despotic Supreme Court ruling – and it was designed that way.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Even the constitution's wording is a bit on the vague side.

Take this from A1 S8 for example: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

When that is paired with the extremely vague "general welfare" wording, it opens things up to a ridiculous degree. In all reality, the constitution does very little limit a government that has no desire to be limited. The checks and balances cease to matter when all branches have decided to work toward the same goal, no matter what that goal may be. Hell, with enough support from the various legislatures, the second amendment could be done away with, just as the eighteenth was destroyed by the twenty-first.

If you read what the writer of the constitution wrote, he said that is not vague at all, that it only applies to the enumerated powers listed.

 

[Cava3r4]

Back on topic...what winds my clock too tight.

I have a retired AF friend (I was army) who I know from being interested in muscle cars. He considers his retirement pay “the second half” of his pay!! An E-5 Buck Sgt OVER 2 years makes some 2327.40 per month (the kid out of high school + 2 years now). 2327 x 12 = 27924 a year BEFORE taxes. I would hardly call that living high on the hog ($13.47 per hour) when you will be on duty 24/7/365 in some chit hole. You really need to divide that out as the guy is going to be deployed 5, 6 or 7 times in as many years. 2327 / 720 hours per 30 day month = 3.23 per hour... quite a bit below minimum wage!! His wife is GOING to leave him too because he is NEVER around!
Iraq and the Stan’s are NOT where you’d want to be. So Korea on the DMZ can be a dicey situation too. I would imagine being in Bosnia (remember, that was only going to be a year long deal in 1994 and we still have troops there!) is not really too cool either. Add in all the “latest and greatest B.S.” from the so called enlightened chain of command, the homosexuality, you can’t pray anywhere, and God forbid, if you are a healthy male don’t even dare to look at a female!!.
Then at the END of your 20 or 30 years (if you don’t get CRIPPLED for life where everyone HATES you….you get in their way!!) you get to deal with the US Gubmnt, The Army, and the VA.
Did I tell you that I have a 100% FAILURE rate in dealing with the VA for 44 years?? Well I did / do! They Jacked me around for 30 years before I got my compensation and the army retired me out due to combat injuries under honorable conditions!!! It was all there in front of them on their paperwork too!
I don’t get the pension either as I’m a chapter 61 clown!! They call that the "concurrent receipt of pay", I call it the 100% disabled veterans TAX. Pension is for TIME served. Compensation is for injuries received while performing your duties. If you had the misfortune of getting shot, crippled for life, BEFORE 20 years, too bad because you DO NOT get your pension and the compensation. NOT even "pro-rata"

All those promises (which were part of a contract and therefore obligations) made to soldiers back in 1965 have been taken away bit by bit over the years.
Everytime their is a budget problem CAUSED by congress, the soldier gets CUT. When the economy is booming, I sure didn't recall them giving back what we once had!!!
Those promises INCLUDED "free medical care"...especially for COMBAT injuries, PX and Commisaries. everytime they close a base that is a Pay cut!!
Like I said before, all you guys who think it is such a gravy train, go on down and sign up. Hell, I’ll give you a ride to the recruiter if you are local.!!
Any takers?? C’mon, put your BODY where your mouth is!
The old saying goes like this: "Freedom has a price the protected will NEVER know!"

 

[Freedom1Man]

SNIP "Freedom has a price the protected will NEVER know!"

Soldiers don't defend freedom.

I would know, I am a veteran.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance