What would you do?

[Doug Huffman]

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The dream-hypothetical - waay up at the OP top of this thread- is of a robber armed with a knife threatening a clerk. The actor is defending an innocent third party and trying to keep it legal.

My actor has entered the room, evaluated the situation, kept his gun holstered and called out to the BadGuy. It's the BadGuy's move...

My actor's intentions are: if the BG flees then the scenario is over; if the BG turns and presents his weapon then actor draws, if the BG ignores the call and continues to threaten the innocent then call again and announce "gun!"

Come on, if we're gonna play hypotheticals, great thinking tools, then lets keep it on track and impersonal.

 

[expvideo]

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Doug Huffman wrote:

The dream-hypothetical - waay up at the OP top of this thread- is of a robber armed with a knife threatening a clerk. The actor is defending an innocent third party and trying to keep it legal.

My actor has entered the room, evaluated the situation, kept his gun holstered and called out to the BadGuy. It's the BadGuy's move...

My actor's intentions are: if the BG flees then the scenario is over; if the BG turns and presents his weapon then actor draws, if the BG ignores the call and continues to threaten the innocent then call again and announce "gun!"

Come on, if we're gonna play hypotheticals, great thinking tools, then lets keep it on track and impersonal.

I see where you are coming from, as far as trying to stay legal, but I don't think that it is a very good idea. It is never wise to under-estimate your opponent. He may be faster with that knife than you expected. He may even be an expert knife-thrower. Your gun may FTF at the wrong moment, and because you gave him that moment to start coming at you, you no longer have time to tap and rack.

However, where I do agree with you is if you are not sure of what you are seeing. If it is not clear to you that the guy has a knife, or that it is a robbery, calling out to the cashier or the robber before drawing may be a good move. If you have misunderstood the situation, pointing a gun at somebody may get you in trouble. I'd advise making sure that you have good cover if you don't know what is in the guy's hand though, because it may not just be a knife.

 

[molonlabetn]

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Beau wrote:

Springfield45 wrote:

B) You draw your weapon and issue a verbal command for him to desist. (Hoping he realizes a kinfe @ a gunfight isn't in his favor.)

Just because I have the power to take a life doesn't mean I desire to.

So do you feel that any violent crime should be immediately punished by death?

Yeah... that clerk's life isn't worth much, anyways. :banghead:

Just watch her throat get slit, and be happy that you didn't have to do anything. I'm sure you won't mind if someone else had the same mentality as you while watching your daughter being robbed at knife-point...

 

[Doug Huffman]

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expvideo wrote:

I see where you are coming from, as far as trying to stay legal, but I don't think that it is a very good idea. It is never wise to under-estimate your opponent. He may be faster with that knife than you expected. He may even be an expert knife-thrower. Your gun may FTF at the wrong moment, and because you gave him that moment to start coming at you, you no longer have time to tap and rack.

However, where I do agree with you is if you are not sure of what you are seeing. If it is not clear to you that the guy has a knife, or that it is a robbery, calling out to the cashier or the robber before drawing may be a good move. If you have misunderstood the situation, pointing a gun at somebody may get you in trouble. I'd advise making sure that you have good cover if you don't know what is in the guy's hand though, because it may not just be a knife.

Well, he can't throw his knife yet since he hasn't turned and the posture to throw is not the same as the position to threaten.

Neither my carry gun or house gun has FTF in my lifetime. I will bet my life that either will fire when the trigger is pulled.

The road to hell is paved with 'what-ifs' - for him as well as me and thee. Pay your money, make your choice, take your chance. I have a lifetime of good decisions to depend upon and I am expert-ish with low number probabilities.

 

[CA_Libertarian]

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Beau wrote:

So do you feel that any violent crime should be immediately punished by death?

I do.

ETA: I guess I'll pipe in on the OP...

Take the shot. Most of us here know that even a heart shot doesn't always instantly drop your target. One training course I took said the average person can function normally for about 8 seconds with a .45" hole in their heart, if they're not instantly overcome by shock. I bet the guy could get a lot of stabbing done in 8 seconds. Maybe enough to kill you or the clerk.

I don't think there will be any legal ramifications for shooting the guy in the back. Even here in CA you have the right to defend youself and others from immediate, grave danger. Is there a state where this isn't the case? (I really want to know so I can avoid such a place.)

 

[expvideo]

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CA_Libertarian wrote:

Beau wrote:

So do you feel that any violent crime should be immediately punished by death?

I do.

ETA: I guess I'll pipe in on the OP...

Take the shot. Most of us here know that even a heart shot doesn't always instantly drop your target. One training course I took said the average person can function normally for about 8 seconds with a .45" hole in their heart, if they're not instantly overcome by shock. I bet the guy could get a lot of stabbing done in 8 seconds. Maybe enough to kill you or the clerk.

I don't think there will be any legal ramifications for shooting the guy in the back. Even here in CA you have the right to defend youself and others from immediate, grave danger. Is there a state where this isn't the case? (I really want to know so I can avoid such a place.)

You're aiming for the wrong organ

 

[Decoligny]

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vmathis12019 wrote:

Doug Huffman wrote:

expvideo wrote:

Doug Huffman wrote:

So now to proceed with the hypothetical...first call out to the BG to distract him from his innocent victim. He turns and presents his weapon to the actor.

The actor is still innocent of instigation. He may or may not be 'in fear', 'withdrawal' is not in the interest of the innocent third party, and 'deadly force' has not yet been put in play.

It's the BG's move...

That's rediculous. It's not the BG's move. You have him at gunpoint and he has a choice to surrender or die, I hardly see that as a "move".

I have not drawn. Read. I have called out to a distant man with a knife.

Why have you provoked an armed man with a holstered gun? If he were to turn and immediately run to you, would you have time to draw and shoot him to the ground? Just a thought. Obviously you trust your abilities far more than I trust my own.

+1

What if he has the knife in his one hand because he likes to use the knife, but has a gun in the other in his pocket. Quick turn and fire, you are dead.

Never announce your presence unless you have a sight picture, one in the pipe, and safety is off.

 

[ilbob]

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I vote for pulling gun from holster, finding cover, and waiting to see what happens. You don't know the whole story. Could be accomplices involved you have not yet noticed.

Hard to call 911 without alerting BG(s).

Shoot if you have to, but if it is just money or other property he is after, let the BG take all he wants.

 

[ConditionThree]

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I vote for (D) "Other".

Draw my weapon quietly and cycle the slide, chambering a round very loudly. If he's really smart, he will know what just happened and drop the knife on the floor... If he's real stupid, he'd turn around to see what made that metallic snapping noise behind him and get the 'deer-in-the-headlights" look.

My evil twin would probably want to double tap him in the back of the thigh while he was commiting his ADW and armed robbery.

 

[mzbk2l]

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Choose A.

...And if it happens to be the store manager, acting a role to teach his new employee what to do in a holdup?

 

[T.Hooks]

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i would choose B. if the BG turns and attempts to throw a knife at me from 20 feet away im pretty sure i could move out the way. now if that happens i will unleash all types of hell on that guy.

if he doesnt throw the knife i would hope he would know that a 40. cal would beat a knife everday that ends with a Y

 

[expvideo]

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I didn't really mean for anyone to take my "knife throwing" example seriously. I was just trying to make a point about not under estimating your opponent. You don't know him. He might be more talented with that knife than you are with your pistol, and he probably has less hesitation to actually applying force.

 

[CA_Libertarian]

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mzbk2l wrote:

Choose A.

...And if it happens to be the store manager, acting a role to teach his new employee what to do in a holdup?

Not likely in this hypothetical...

Springfield45 wrote:

Setting the scene;

It's late ... maybe 0100 ...

Even if it was during the day, I've never heard of a convenience store staging a holdup. If they do, they should NOT use realistic looking weapons or do it when customers are in the store.

I wouldn't be able to convict the shooter if I were on that jury.

 

[color of law]

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Dreeeeeeeem, dream dream dream.

Though it may have come in a dream. Dreams are a way to work scenarios. This is a good thing.

 

[jack]

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Close the distance between you while maintaining aim at him once at 10-12 feet, " drop the weapon you are under arrest. Drop the weapon or you will be fired on ! "

Two rounds to the head and you are done.

 

[TechnoWeenie]

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jack wrote:

Close the distance between you while maintaining aim at him once at 10-12 feet, " drop the weapon you are under arrest. Drop the weapon or you will be fired on ! "

Two rounds to the head and you are done.

Whoa there John Wayne, this is real world.. 'double taps to the head' @ 12' isn't realistic on a moving target, with adrenaline flowing, etc. I would NOT close distance to someone who is armed, you're putting yourself FURTHER in harms way.. the 21' rule is exactly that, even WITH rounds in him, inside 21', the BG can still have enough momentum to stab you or shoot you back.

 

[expvideo]

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jack wrote:

Close the distance between you...

bzzzz... I'm sorry, the correct answer was maintain your distance.



From a martial arts standpoint, closing the distance is only something to do when you are unarmed, trying to disarm someone. Your advantage with the handgun is distance. If you take away your advantage, the knife is just as effective of a weapon. I have practiced disarming techniques, and trust me... You don't want to "close the distance" with me, or I will take your gun. I know that sounds cocky, but I imagine that with a little practice, you could do the same to me. Pistol disarms are incredibly easy (one of the easiest things you can do in martial arts), so long as you can close the distance. The closer a person is to someone that is competent in disarms, the more likely the disarm will work. In fact, if you were within 5 feet of someone that knew disarms, and weren't expecting an attempted disarm, I would expect your odds of pistol retention to be around 10%. That's not good. There is a very good reason to keep your distance.

Although a handgun is a lot cooler and a lot more expencive than a knife, at close range it is equally effective. You want the advantage, and you don't want to give any of it to the robber. Trust me, closing the distance is a very, very bad idea.

I want to stress again that I'm not trying to make myself sound like some kind of super ninja, and I'm not trying to stress my own talents. What I am trying to express is that pistol disarms are incredibly easy for anyone to learn. I taught my 6 year old brother a couple and he learned them very easily. Anybody can learn them, and I'm surprised that more people don't know them.

 

[Thundar]

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What would you do?

Do you shoot him in the back?

No, but I might shoot him in the head.

 

[Decoligny]

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Thundar wrote:

What would you do?

Do you shoot him in the back?

Going with the Uncle Fester approach - "Shoot em in the Back!"

 

[jack]

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I'm standing by my original post. Close the distance to 10-12 feet, give one verbal command to drop the knife and then two head shots. With my sig head shots at 10-12 feet would be a breeze. We are not talking about a moving target, he moves and he isgone.ALL that Ningia warrior crap is a joke, there is no blocking a 9mm round with a kick or a jump. If the suspect doesn't dropthe weapon youbang bang him.He starts towards you and he should already be hitting the floor.