What would you do?

[Heartless_Conservative]

imported post

He's not talking about blocking bullets, he's talking about pushing your gun to the side/out of battery/out of your hand/BG charging you. Bullets won't stop a guy that barraling towards you, at least not immediately.

 

[kparker]

imported post

(consider the legal rammifications for this)

...

shooting someone in the back would be hard to defend legally

While that person is engaged in a credible threat to someone's life? Not hard to justify or defend at all.

Chinchin,

Are you serious? Does Virginia really not allow justifiable homicide in the defense of others? How barbaric...

Doug,

Sorry, if your gun is still in your holster, a knife-wielding man at 20' is anything but distant.

 

[Springfield45]

imported post

mzbk2l wrote:

Choose A.

...And if it happens to be the store manager, acting a role to teach his new employee what to do in a holdup?

Wow ..... excellent turn of events, admitantly, I didn't even think of that in my reaction to the scenario.

Though, higly unlikely @ 1am .... we all the the Top Dog (manager) is in bed snoring his sinuses out at this hour .....

~~Springfield

 

[Thundar]

imported post

T.Hooks wrote:

i would choose B. if the BG turns and attempts to throw a knife at me from 20 feet away im pretty sure i could move out the way. now if that happens i will unleash all types of hell on that guy.

if he doesnt throw the knife i would hope he would know that a 40. cal would beat a knife everday that ends with a Y

If he is MI-13 you might still be in for a fight

Spanish/English days of the week:

• lunes
  Monday
  
  martes
  Tuesday
  
  miércoles
  Wednesday
  
  jueves
  Thursday
  
  viernes
  Friday
  
  sábado
  Saturday
  
  domingo
  Sunday

 

[expvideo]

imported post

Thundar wrote:

T.Hooks wrote:

i would choose B. if the BG turns and attempts to throw a knife at me from 20 feet away im pretty sure i could move out the way. now if that happens i will unleash all types of hell on that guy.

if he doesnt throw the knife i would hope he would know that a 40. cal would beat a knife everday that ends with a Y

If he is MI-13 you might still be in for a fight

You mean MS-13, right?

 

[T.Hooks]

imported post

expvideo wrote:

Thundar wrote:

T.Hooks wrote:

i would choose B. if the BG turns and attempts to throw a knife at me from 20 feet away im pretty sure i could move out the way. now if that happens i will unleash all types of hell on that guy.

if he doesnt throw the knife i would hope he would know that a 40. cal would beat a knife everday that ends with a Y

If he is MI-13 you might still be in for a fight

You mean MS-13, right?

Good thing for me there are no MS-13 in south georgia. I only have to worry about C.M.E (crime murder and execution) not like thats any better. most of them are in jail and i dont think the police would miss to many of them anyway

 

[deepdiver]

imported post

I'll vote in the: immediately gun would be in my hand low ready and I would be scoping some cover, then scope out for an accomplice, assuming none seen or heard, and depending somewhat on his distance from the clerk and the demeanor of the BG and clerk, most likely action would be to sight on him, yell that he can drop the knife or I'll shoot him, and if he acts in any aggressive manner towards me or the clerk I'll pull the trigger until the threat is eliminated.

 

[FightingGlock19]

imported post

Springfield45 wrote:

A) You draw your weapon and fire, shooting him in the back, until the threat is neutralized. (consider the legal rammifications for this)

why give up a tactical advantage? I'm going with ventilate the shitbag.

 

[S&W5906]

imported post

I say i would stay out of sight but still be observant of the BG and his actions.. I dont want to turn the situation into something that could of been prevented by simply complying with his demands, if you engage the BG you might just escalate the situation futher and really get someone hurt..excluding the BG. .... But then again i wont sit back and just watch the BG try to harm the clerk..

 

[Desert Dweller]

imported post

This is what happens when you don't shoot a knife wielding assailant. I would opt for option B, and that would still be risky as New Mexico doesn't support the Castle Doctrine. This is a police officer who felt his hand to hand training would allow him to subdue his assailant.



Dave

 

[Sa45auto]

imported post

Springfield45 wrote:

My curiosity got the best of me last night after a rather odd dream I had ... It led me to wonder what someone else would do in this situation.  Here goes....

You're carrying your everyday carry weapon.. OC or CC you choose.

Setting the scene;

     It's late ... maybe  0100 ... you're coming home from work after a late night oddball shift...  about halfway home, you realize that maybe you shouldn't have had that cup of "stay awake for the ride home" coffee.  You gotta piss ... NOW.  So, you pull into the first 24hr station you come across.  You enter the store, greet the clerk, and go right to the head.  While doing your business, you overhear some shouting out in the store.

    You exit the restroom quietly, and do a quick anyalasis of the situation. 

     You find, about 20 feet from you, The clerk, a young woman, at your 10 o'clock, facing you,  at your 12 o'clock, with his back to you a shitbag, of about the same age,
holding a  bowie knife,  (I mean a croco-dundee bowie).  He is still unaware of your presence. You have heard him shout "hurry up or I'm going to kill you" multiple times now.  As the clerk  nervously fumbles to open the drawer, he (the shitbag) is only getting less patient, and more hostile.

         What do you do?

A) You draw your weapon and fire,  shooting him in the back, until the threat is neutralized.         (consider the legal rammifications for this)

B) You draw your weapon and issue a verbal command for him to desist. (Hoping he realizes a kinfe @ a gunfight isn't in his favor.)

C) You do nothing, The shitbag still hasn't noticed your presence, and you are in no immediate danger.  Take cover, and ride it out until he leaves. Hoping for the best.

D)  OTHER
 

       Personally, I chose option A ...  Forget the possible lawsuits and legal rammifications that might follow, an innocent life is at risk here, he doesn't know you're there, you've got ample time to make an accurate shot (considering the circumstance) If my carrygun leaves it's holster, it's going back in smoking ~ shoot the scumbucket in the back and save an innocent life ... Please tell me if you feel I'm wayy out of line on this ....:uhoh:

~~Springfield

BANG BANG BANG.

I can live with what ever happens after that, BUT if I failed to act and anything happened to the female clerk I could not live with that.

 

[Legba]

imported post

That'll leave a scar (above) - about looks like me with my shirt off... Knives are not toys either, to be sure. That's why god invented guns, so slackers like me don't have to do push-ups and study kung-fu to deal with people like this guy's assailant.

-ljp

 

[PFC Helms]

imported post

IMO I would choose option B. As this situation is occuring in the Civilian enviroment and as a MP I have no Jurisdiction in such. Even though I do base all my decisions on the Escalation of Force Matrix.



[align=left](1) Verbal persuasion.[/align]


[align=left](2) Unarmed defense techniques.[/align]


[align=left](3) Chemical aerosol irritant projectors[/align]


[align=left](4) MP club.[/align]


[align=left](5) Military working dogs.[/align]


[align=left](6) Presentation of deadly force capability .[/align]

(7) Deadly force

I would first find suitable C&C (Cover and Concealment)where as to not present any danger to the Clerk in the use of any force necessary.Draw my weapon, obtain sight picture (center mass, NOT HEAD SHOT) and verbally announce "STOP, STOP, STOP".At which point if the suspect does not comply and place the weapon on the deck with his handsplain view.Then I would use deadly force. If the suspect complies thenI would have him lay down on the deck with his hands interlaced behind his head, close distance, and secure the weapon.Then I wouldholster my weaponand cuffthe suspect until local/state LEO's could arrive.

(insert flowchart here) lol.

Yes, I do carry restraints with me as a civilian (force of habbit).



Helms, Thomas S

PFC

1/149th BSTB

U.S. Army


also thought i might add this in here for a little bit of research done on my part

[align=left]g. Additional requirements for the use of firearms.[/align]
[align=left](1) Give an order to halt before firing. (2) Warning shots are prohibited. (3) When a firearm is discharged, it will be fired with the intent of rendering the person(s) at whom it is discharged incapable of continuing the activity or course of behavior prompting the individualto shoot. (4) Shots will be fired only with due regard for the safety of innocent bystanders. (5) In the case of holstered weapons, a weapon should not be removed from the holster unless there is reasonable expectation that use of the weapon may be necessary.[/align]
[align=left]excerpt from AR 190-14, sect. II, chapter 3 subsect. 3-2 Use of deadly force [/align]

 

[utbagpiper]

imported post

Interesting thoughts. I especially like the possibility that it is not really a robbery. If not the store manager, maybe an old high school buddy very stupidly joking around. It happens. A few years back we had a case reported in Utah where a kid would come in and sans weapon do the whole "this is a hold up" routine while his mom was working behind the counter. Someone figured it was just a really stupid joke and told him to knock it off because he had a CCW permit. I figured the permit holder was pointing out the danger of such conduct in an armed society. Local (anti-RKBA) media reported it as permit holder playing Rambo.

My CCW instructor presented this same scenario to us and after letting us think for a moment brought up the possibility of an armed accomplice we failed to notice (either inside the store, or outside with a scatter gun). He THEN changed the scenario a little bit this way, "Now it isn't YOU coming out of the restroom, but your wife who ran out to grab a gallon of milk for breakfast. What do you want HER to do in this situation?" Well, of course, the tone in the class changed dramatically. I want my wife to come home to me safe and sound, PERIOD. He went to on say, "Your wife and children and parents and friends want the exact same thing for you." It really changed my thinking on this. I chose NOT to become a police officer for a reason. I am allowed to run AWAY from gun fire and danger. Do I really want to place myself and my family at risk when I have the choice not to? It is a very difficult question.

I hope I'm never in a situation to have to decide whether to risk my life (or possibly freedom and financial future) to help someone apparently under criminal attack. A part of me feels a strong sense of moral, civic, and Christian duty to intervene in such cases. Such is what decent men do.

Another part feels a strong moral and Christian duty to go home safely to my family. My death, disability, or incarceration would place a REAL and significant burden on them and there would be no police association or government benefits to cushion the blow in such cases.

Part of me feels like others have had the same opportunity to prepare as I have and their failure or unwillingness to do so is not my problem. Put another way, shall I really place more value on the life and safety of a stranger than she apparently placed on her own life when she failed to prepare even as working one of the most dangerous and high risk jobs in the lower 48 and risk leaving my children orphans and my wife a widow?

Part of me would certainly like a little help if someone ever got the drop on me.

IF I convinced myself that acting was the proper thing to do, I'd likely lean toward A, a couple of shots to the back of the head and thoracic cavity, minimum physical risk to myself. Here in Utah, no legal requirement to warn, defense of innocent 3rd party essentially the same as defense of self, etc.

If I could not convince myself that taking action was the proper thing to do, I'd take cover and be a good witness.

With only a handgun and faced with a suspect armed with a knife, possibly a gun in a pocket, at indoor ranges of less than 30 feet, I see no reason to risk alerting him before the first bullet starts to reduce the threat he poses. If I'm going to act, it will be to neutralize the threat as quickly as possible before I am on the receiving end of debilitating or fatal wounds. It also reduces the time that any unnoticed accomplice can target me, or the clerk. With the obvious and primary bad guy neutralized I stand a much better chance of surviving a second bad guy.

But what do I know? I avoid convenience stores and rest stops at such hours, and bars and other high risk locations specifically to avoid getting into these situations.

 

[Desert Dweller]

imported post

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato (427-347 B.C.)

 

[Pointman]

imported post

The answer to this seems pretty simple. Call 9-1-1.

 

[unreconstructed1]

imported post

I'll admit that I haven't read through all three posts, but I'll answer like this.

1. quick scan for accomplices,draw my piece, lock and load and take aim
2. let the BG know you are there and your intentions " drop the knife and back away"

a-if he does as you ask, let the clerk know to call 9-1-1.

b-1.if he doesnt, as soon as he turns around and comes for you neutralize thethreat.

b-2.remove from his reach the knife, and keep the weapon drawn on him until he can be secured (if he survived)

b-3. see 4.a

edit: I misread the original post and had to adapt my scenario accordingly.

 

[ODA 226]

imported post

ALWAYS TRY TO PUT SOME FORM OF COVER OR PHYSICAL OBSTACLE BETWEEN THE PERP AND YOU! If you are not behind cover, immediately move to cover while scanning for additional threats. He MAY have an accomplice!

Then and ONLY then, challenge the perp if you choose to do so. ALWAYS ASSUME THAT THE PERP HAS AN ADDITIONAL WEAPON! If he does, it may be a firearm!

Closing the distance between you and the perp is not only foolhardy, but COULD lead to YOUR DEATH!

Just talking as a former LEO and US Army Special Forces CQB instructor...what do I know?

 

[unreconstructed1]

imported post

actually before the edit I had said take cover. but since I had misread the original post, and had to edit my post accordingly, somehow the take cover part got left out...:banghead:

 

[fullauto223cal]

imported post

I gotta go with Comp-tech on this one "OPTION B"

Read this excerpt from John Locke -

The state of war is a state of enmity and destruction: and therefore declaring by word or action, not a passionate and hasty, but a sedate settled design upon another man's life, puts him in a state of war with him against whom he has declared such an intention, and so has exposed his life to the other's power to be taken away by him, or any one that joins with him in his defence, and espouses his quarrel; it being reasonable and just, I should have a right to destroy that which threatens me with destruction: for, by the fundamental law of nature, man being to be preserved as much as possible, when all cannot be preserved, the safety of the innocent is to be preferred: and one may destroy a man who makes war upon him, or has discovered an enmity to his being, for the same reason that he may kill a wolf or a lion; because such men are not under the ties of the commonlaw of reason, have no other rule, but that of force and violence, and so may be treated as beasts of prey, those dangerous and noxious creatures, that will be sure to destroy him whenever he falls into their power.

SOURCE: The Second Treatise of Civil Government- 1690 Chaper III

He hasn't stabbed anyone yet and he hasn't engaged you yet. Tell him to cease the threat or he gets plugged!

May God guide my path to never have to use my weapon but if ever evil should confront me may he guide me to be accurate and swift!