Who in FL wants to form a group to get OC moving on Florida>

[rebel-patriot]

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Hi folks! 77Zach, Knapper, Adulay, thanks for the replies. I was beginning to think that this thread had lost interest.

I am just north of Tampa in Southern Pasco. I can definitely travel to meet with people and am interested in getting a core group of people together to get this moving here in Florida.

Adulay I know you are an hour south per your message. Which area would be easier for you to get to, Brandon or St. Pete? Gives me an idea which way you are coming in.

I am available on Sundays and Tuesdays. I would appreciate if everyone would chime in with when they are available and where they will be coming from so we can try to pick a time and a central location.


As I see it, and I am by no lawyer or expert, We have a couple of paths to follow in order to accomplish this. That is the strategy to which I am referring.
The "paths" I am talking about here are:
1. The specific repeal of Florida Statute 790.053 or
2. Initiate an amendment to the state Constitution.

That decision will tell us what type of organization we will need to create. Both paths are going to require money, legal help etc.. so we will need to start thinking of fundraisers..

Maybe get on the phone with the Wisconsin folks and discuss what they have been doing. Perhaps get with the founders of this website in VA and get some advise as well.

Is this going to be a hard line, our way or the highway type thing or are we willing as a group to have a fallback position? In other words are we going to hardline it saying Open Carry for all legal gunowners without the need for any kind of permit etc or are we willing to accept an initial fallback position of changing the CC permit to a generic "firearms permit" here in Florida where any firearms permit holder can either OC or CC as they wish? I am just tossing ideas out to get the tumblers moving. I firmly believe that this decision should not be made lightly and should be discussed openly and logically by this group before organizing.

77Zach, I understand your frustrations with the system. All of the topics and issues you raise are good points. These are specfic actions used to accomplish the overall strategy. Once the group has formed and made the big decisions, that is when these type of actions will be decided on and begun.

I propose this as a beginning agenda for our meeting. Please pitch in ideas and locations.

1. Meet and greet. Each person gives a brief introduction outlining their personal history, why this is important to them, and what skills they believe they bring to the group. Say 5-10 minutes each person.

2. Objectives. What is it exactly we wish to accomplish and how best to organize around that objective. This is going to be the core of the meeting and initially I propose we spend at least an hour or more discussing this and allowing everyone to be heard.

3. Action Items. I am sure questions will be raised and more information will be necessary for everyone to make their personal decisions as to whether or not to commit to this group. We should all agree initially to get together at least 3 times to discuss and decide.

4. Decide on a next meeting date, time, location.

I propose we all set our calendars for Sunday September 27th for our first meeting.
Does this sould good to everyone else? Comments, questions, constructive criticisms?

Reb

 

[77zach]

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I believe we should go for "gold star" status. If we can convince them to allow OC with a permit, we should be able to do it without a permit. We could point out that most states allow unlicensed OC without any problems. That currently Fl has no right to bear arms, as we must wait and get permission from the state to carry at all. That it's very hot here and not always convenient to conceal, etc.

Not to mention that if we can only OC with a permit, it will still be uncommon enough that every time you do it, the cops are going to ask to see your "permit" every time you go out, they'll run it every time and make you not want to OC. And in the bigger cities, forget about it.

And finally, and MOST importantly, the sheeple at large believe that owning and carrying weapons is a privilege granted by the state. Read the forums in gold star states-what is the common response from the sheep? It's "Do you have a permit for that?" If we can say "no, it's our right, and it's legally recognized" then we have done a service to our rights and liberty in general. If we say "yes", this reinforces the misguided idea that the right is a privilege and that we're only safe if the government sanctifies us.

For these reasons, I insist we go for the whole thing. If we go for it and fall short, then I'll take it but...

 

[rebel-patriot]

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Cool.. the overall point of my last post was simply to outline that organization is critical to getting this moving here in FL... and many decisions need to be made before that organization can come together.. so lets come together and discuss for at least 3 meetings and let each interested party put their cards on the table and see if from it all we cant organize a core group with an action plan.

(edit - add this PS) BTW.. Love your passion. Absolutely necessary for this issue. When we get together, bring supporting facts and stats to your argument. Will be quite interesting and will, I believe, go a long way to helping form the core group.

Reb

 

[77zach]

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Agreed. What was that organization headed by NRA pres Marion Hammer that got shall issue CCWs passed here in the 80's? Florida sportsmen Association or something like that? They were instrumental in the "stand your ground law" and the "guns at work" law too. She follows the line of the NRA mostly, and they've only been concerned about permitted concealed, but the tide seems to be shifting a little, with OC being in the news and all. If somehow we did get their support, our chances go to very good.

I live about 2 hours north of tampa unfortunately, and am pretty busy. I just graduated from UCF, just turned 24 and am living at home again, and I think going back to school in Gainesville. I'd be willing to go down to Tampa if it would be worthwhile. A lot of times meetings aren't useful. Actually going down to Hernando county in early october for the Appleseed, which should be informative. There might be some recruits to our cause as well?

If it involves writing or meeting legislators or going to Tallahassee to talk to them, then I'll definitely drive to do something like that.

 

[rebel-patriot]

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77zach - How does the 27th look for you? Meetings can be productive or unproductive depending on the people participating. I proposed an agenda and a date. Agenda's help to keep meetings focused and on track.

But to pull the "core" group together, I think that at least 3 meetings in person will be critical. Part of that should be to establish regular means of online communications among those members in support of the ongoing events and goals. If we can get at least 5 people to commit to 3 in person meetings.. I think we can have the basis of a core group.

Have you thought at all about what would be the best method of acheiving "gold star" status in regards to OC? I think our choices are:
1. Constitutional Amendment - long drawn out process but with the longest lasting results if successful.
2. Specific repeal of Florida Statute 790.053 - This would remove the OC is not legal section to current law
3. Lawsuit against the State of Florida

Here is a point of interest :

Florida Constitution of 1838
Section 21 states "That the free white men of this State shall have the right to keep and to bear arms, for their common defense. "

Florida Constitution of 1861
Section 21 states "That the free white men of this state shall have the right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense."

Both of these Constitutions were before the Civil War.

Florida Constitiution of 1868
Section 22 states "The people shall have the right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the State."

then in gets hinky just a few years after that.

Florida Constitiution of 1885
Section 20 states "The right of the people to bear arms in defense of themselves and the lawful authority of the State, shall not be infringed, but the Legislature may prescribe the manner in which they may be borne."

and finally

Florida Constitiution of 1968
Section 8 states "Right to Bear Arms. The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law."

So... for the past 124 years the State of Florida has reserved the right to themselves to prescribe the manner in which individual citizens can bear arms.

I am further looking into the history of Florida Statutes in addition to constitutional issues.

Hope to hear from you and others and get this moving.

Reb

 

[77zach]

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Probably not the 27th. My parents are taking advantage of my being back home, and are going away and will want me to baby sit that weekend. The next weekend I go toappleseed. I'm also working most weekends.

Florida history is very interesting. Before i did fresh install on my pc and forgot to save the folder it was in, i had a FL supreme court case from the 30's ( i think) that you wouldn't believe. Basically it said, if you're white, you can carry concealed or openly WITHOUT a permit. Permits were for the "negroes". side issue.

I would think changing the statute or a lawsuit would be the best way. So maybe do a fundraiser for a lawsuit first, and when the fascist judge rules against us, parlay that media exposure into motivation for some pro gun FL house or senate members to get the statute change? Just throwing ideas out there.

The lawsuit is foolproof, in my opinion, but we don't have respect for natural rights or rule of law in this country. There is no "right" to bear arms here. Even if one interprets "regulate the manner" to be referring to "open" or "concealed" and not simply secured in a holster, not drunk or disorderly, not waving it around irresponsibly, etc; the constitution is still violated. It seems to me that the state must allow Unlicensed carry in SOME manner, instead of in NO manner whatsoever, if indeed we have a Right?

So I think first we go for the lawsuit. Then either way after that, amendment or statutory revision. However, I would think it takes more votes and effort to amend the Constitution, but I really don't know.

 

[rebel-patriot]

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77zach wrote:

I would think changing the statute or a lawsuit would be the best way. So maybe do a fundraiser for a lawsuit first, and when the fascist judge rules against us, parlay that media exposure into motivation for some pro gun FL house or senate members to get the statute change? Just throwing ideas out there.

The lawsuit is foolproof, in my opinion, but we don't have respect for natural rights or rule of law in this country. There is no "right" to bear arms here. Even if one interprets "regulate the manner" to be referring to "open" or "concealed" and not simply secured in a holster, not drunk or disorderly, not waving it around irresponsibly, etc; the constitution is still violated. It seems to me that the state must allow Unlicensed carry in SOME manner, instead of in NO manner whatsoever, if indeed we have a Right?

So I think first we go for the lawsuit. Then either way after that, amendment or statutory revision. However, I would think it takes more votes and effort to amend the Constitution, but I really don't know.

A lawsuit is definitely on the table IMHO. It is the strategy of it that I am thinking over.
Consider the following:

1. Lawsuit first then change the law if lawsuit is lost.
I agree that the lawsuit will most likely fail. Not on its merits, but based on the modern trend of the judiciary to interpret the law based on popular opinion and not on the legal merits. During the course of this it definitely opens widespread debate and media coverage. It also allows opponents (and we all know they are already organized and working) to get their machine going and the cost of the fight just increased.

2. Change the law first and let the opponents file suit against.
I think this puts them on the defensive instead of the offensive. I also have the sense that the timing is close to being right to get the ear of the legislature here in Florida for this. Consider HB 21. Within HB 21 it states the following:
"(d) The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution reserves to the people the right to keep and bear arms as that right was understood at the time that Florida was admitted to statehood in 1845. The guaranty of that right is a matter of contract between the State of Florida and its citizens and the United States as of the time that the compact with the United States was agreed upon and adopted by Florida and the United States in 1845.
(e) Section 8, Article I of the Florida Constitution clearly secures to the citizens of Florida, and prohibits government interference with, the right of individual Florida citizens to keep and bear arms. This constitutional protection remains unchanged from the original Florida Constitution, which was approved by Congress and the people of Florida, and the right exists as it was understood at the time that the compact with the United States was agreed upon and adopted by Florida and the United States in 1845."

I think a good argument can be made to those supporting this bill that the right of Florida citizens to legally bear arms openly was clearly understood in 1845 and should be upheld by the removal of Florida Statute 790.053.

I understand your time constraints. Is there a date in September that would be good for you? Hopefully on a Tuesday or Sunday?

Reb - signing off for the day.. will be back tomorrow.

 

[77zach]

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I agree on all points. Perhaps there is a lawyer in this state who will do it out of the goodness of his heart or just to cover his costs.

On the other hand it's in reality going to require some time and cash. How far do we keep appealing? The longer we go the costlier it becomes. Wish there was an interested lawyer on this message board. The lady who introduced HB 21 in the House, O'Toole, is not far from me, it can't hurt if I go talk to her about this. The guy in my district now cosponsors HB21 so maybe I'll go feel him out. I couldn't believe it- I called him about it, he said he'd read the bill, and then the next week he was a sponsor. There are plenty of pro-gun pols around. Shoot, the citizenry around here would agree with us by far (marion county). They'd be onboard with total 2A freedom. They just can't be bothered: " I got my deer rifle and my duck gun, and a pistol in the glovebox and a CCW in case those Obama supporters make me feel threatened, and I'm happy."


Ok, path of least resistance first. This week I'll draft a letter to the sponsors of HB 21 about OC. I'll post it here and get comments, then I'll send it to them. I will deliver it to my rep in person.

I'm also going to send it to a senator haridopolis from district 26. it looks like he'll become the president of the senate. He's a libertarian leaning republican who introduced a bill legalizing the sale of raw milk in stores in Fl. He would be a good ally to have. Remember we have to find strategic targets in the Senate as well.

Any sunday in october after the first one would work for me ( i think). Need to get multiple people involved in this however.





PS.

Wonder if there is anyone out there who actually has the misdemeanor charge for OC. I don't even think it's necessarily an arrestable offense. just a fine. This way the state initiates the aggression against a peaceable citizen and the process is already started for us!!! We could raise money for him to get the conviction overturned.

 

[rebel-patriot]

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Hey zach... again I love the passion man. But this is where I think you need to slow your roll just a little and here is why.

Which do you think will be more effective? Individuals writing letters to their reps, some of them eloquent some not so much, some making good points some not as well, all coming in to the reps. Or... a lot of letters coming in all around the same time, all hitting the same talking points in one form or another followed up by calls and requests for meetings and face time?


This is where jumping from strategy to tactical action too quickly can cause unintended bumps in the road and why I am trying to gauge interest in getting a core group of people organized behind the issue. It boils down to Plan the Work then Work the Plan.. but do so in a way to maximize impact and get the point across quickly and efficiently.

Write your letter, get the information on who to send it to etc.. but I urge you to seriously take my request to get this core group together and a full action plan in place and maximize the impact of your efforts along with others.

Just my two cents and worth every penny you paid for it.. how does that go? Opinions are like.. lol..

Later man.. talk to you soon.

Reb

 

[rebel-patriot]

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77zach wrote:

PS.

Wonder if there is anyone out there who actually has the misdemeanor charge for OC. I don't even think it's necessarily an arrestable offense. just a fine. This way the state initiates the aggression against a peaceable citizen and the process is already started for us!!! We could raise money for him to get the conviction overturned.

Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 790
Weapons And Firearms View Entire Chapter [size="-1"] [/size][size="-1"]775.082 or s. 775.083.

[/size] Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 775
Definitions; General Penalties; Registration Of Criminals View Entire Chapter [size="-1"] [/size][size="-1"]775.082 Penalties; applicability of sentencing structures; mandatory minimum sentences for certain reoffenders previously released from prison.--[/size]
[size="-1"](b) For a misdemeanor of the second degree, by a definite term of imprisonment not exceeding 60 days.
[/size][size="-1"]775.083 Fines.--[/size][size="-1"](e) $500, when the conviction is of a misdemeanor of the second degree or a noncriminal violation.

While I am not an attorney nor a LEO, I am almost 100% certain you would be arrested, arraigned, and prosecuted if this were pressed. If found guilty, above are the penalties.

Reb
[/size][size="-1"]
[/size]

 

[77zach]

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You're right, we need a coalition of the willing.

 

[marrandy]

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[size="-1"]
[/size][size="-1"]790.06 License to carry concealed weapon or firearm[/size]
[size="-1"](3)The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services shall deny a license if the applicant has been found guilty of, had adjudication of guilt withheld for, or had imposition of sentence suspended for one or more crimes of violence constituting a misdemeanor, unless 3 years have elapsed since probation or any other conditions set by the court have been fulfilled or the record has been sealed or expunged. The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services shall revoke a license if the licensee has been found guilty of, had adjudication of guilt withheld for, or had imposition of sentence suspended for one or more crimes of violence within the preceding 3 years.


So the volunteer would likely have his CCL revoked.
[/size]

 

[rebel-patriot]

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Hey folks.. is anyone other than myself and zack really interested in moving the OC issue forward in the state of Florida? Come on, speak up.

(Edit - adding thoughts) You know.. I imagine that there are plenty of people that wish this issue was decided and they could carry open. They also don't have time to devote outside their personal lives to get it changed the way they would really like to see it.

Well the honest part is the real time you devote could be fairly minimal. Getting something up and running is the hard part. But your involvement could be as simple as joining an email group and possibly signing a petition or maybe attending a function or two when you have time. But if there is no interest, and no one at all wants to get involved, what makes you think that things will ever change in your favor other than just blind luck? Think it over, post a message.

Thanks

Reb
American by birth, Southern by choice

 

[blacksharkL82]

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ME!

Too hot to wear a propper consealment garment for my 1911.

blacksharkL82@aol.com

Spring Hill, 45 miles N of Tampa, at the Gulf.

 

[77zach]

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It doesn't look like it bodes well, Reb

You're absolutely right; most people definitely want OC here, but it's as you say. I guess I'll go and scour the Texas section, and see what, if any progress is being made

 

[rebel-patriot]

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blacksharkL82 wrote:

ME!

Too hot to wear a propper consealment garment for my 1911.

blacksharkL82@aol.com

Spring Hill, 45 miles N of Tampa, at the Gulf.

Hi Blackshark!
I am just south of you in Port Richey. Actually am getting ready to go up to Spring Hill Lanes Lounge tonight for a little while.

Blackshark, go back and read some of the stuff 77zack and I have been kicking round and give some input when you can. Glad to meet you.

Reb

 

[rebel-patriot]

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77zach wrote:

It doesn't look like it bodes well, Reb

You're absolutely right; most people definitely want OC here, but it's as you say. I guess I'll go and scour the Texas section, and see what, if any progress is being made

Dont lose heart zach. Struggles are never easy and believe it or not, one person CAN make a difference. Hang in there.. more to come soon

Reb

 

[ADulay]

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rebel-patriot wrote:

Hey folks.. is anyone other than myself and zack really interested in moving the OC issue forward in the state of Florida? Come on, speak up.

Reb

Hey, I'm back. Was getting caught up on the reading of messages here andall of your excellent discussion on this problem in Florida. I was out in the Dakotas since my last posting and did "open carry" quite a bit with no problems at all.

Your request for a meeting time and place is a great idea and assuming we can ever get this small group started, a brain storming session is the logical starting venue.

I'm in Punta Gorda, FL and can make it to pretty much anyplace in the state for a meeting.

Also, from some of the reading here, it appears I'm really going to have to get up to speed on the Florida statutes as they apply to us and our upcoming challenge. I do believe that you are both correct in going at it via a removal of the prohibitions, as dictated by statute, rather than attempting a full blown state constitutional amendment.

I have previously sent emails and letters to my state reps, the governor and congressmen as directed by various NRA email updates so getting that type of communication out shouldn't be a problem for most of us. It's actually quite painless to do that kind of thing using some of the national boilerplate accounts.

AD

 

[blacksharkL82]

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Has anyone thought of contacting any of the national gun groups, such as the NRA. and others of the same ilk?

They may have some pointers and help us front the push. Maybe.

 

[rebel-patriot]

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Hi folks! Well it looks like we may have the beginning of a discussion group here and hopefully more. We will see after we all get face to face a time or two and determine from there.

For my part, I have been busy reading and discussing and forming what I believe to be the beginnings of a group policy. All up for debate and discussion. I would much rather have additional input into strategies and tactical planning than do it all on my own.

Yes I have thought about getting other groups involved in the effort but in my opinion that is kind of putting the cart before the horse. I also believe large groups like the NRA are going to take a back seat, at most provide some minimal direction maybe. Once it is done they will come out all bells and whistles and congratulate everyone but for the "getting it done" section I think they will wait it out.

I think the best course of action is to get together and stick to an agenda. Discuss it out and find the best set of strategies. Develop an action plan around those strategies and work it tirelessly as much as is possible. I also think it will take at least 2 legislative sessions to accomplish this once the group is organized and working.

I think we have some very valid and logical arguments on our side and can accomplish the tasks. As for outside groups, I think any venue possible to relay the message is a good thing. Immediately to mind at the 1.5 million CCW holders here in the state of Florida, most Libertarian, Constitutionalist, tea party members, maybe get a table at some gun shows around the state and collect signatures and pass out literature etc etc etc etc... but this all has to revolve around the type of group and organization to support this and how to grow that etc.. I think lots to discuss.

So far I count 4 of us.. a good start I think.. I have been on vacation this week and tomorrow go back to the grind of it all. I will be online some mornings and late nights. Tuesdays are the best for me during my work week. So please, do not take messages far and few between to mean I am lax on this issue. Just busy earning a living. LOL.

I propose we get together the second sunday in October, which will be OCT 11 if all of us can attend. Zack? Adulay? Blackshark? Let me know how that date is on your calendar.

Reb
American by birth, Southern by choice.