wilding teen mobs

[Sgt. Kabukiman N.Y.P.D.]

This has been an increasing problem across the country.
I know there have been many attacks in Chicago, & I've read of them happening elsewhere.
Now it's come to my town, & in the WI thread we sort of started this discussion, but I thought it was more appropriate over here:





In the comments on the article above, I posted that I think being attacked by a mob is a threat to life & limb & would shoot, or if on a jury I would vote against penalties for someone else who shot. I think that's covered under current self-defense law, though I look forward to SYG & Castle Doctrine making things safer for citizens.

As for multiple high-capacity (or even average capacity) magazines, I don't think it would take stopping more than 2 or 3 of the assailants before the rest would turn tail & run. In a "target-rich environment" like an attacking mob, that could probably even be done with a CA-legal reduced-capacity magazine.

Just a bit of humor here: If you don't already, make sure to jog every day. I suggest improving your ability to run your $#$! off out of the way of danger.

 

[since9]

Just a bit of humor here: If you don't already, make sure to jog every day. I suggest improving your ability to run your $#$! off out of the way of danger.

As one who used to be a runner, I have to add my two cents and say that it's fine for people who are healthy, skinny, and used to running to keep running. I've known lots of people, myself included, who tried running once they gained some weight, and in so doing, caused temporary or permanent injury.

They days I walk, swim, and ride a bicycle. I like cycling the most, as it's just a kick in the pants.

 

[okboomer]

Regarding the legality of shooting teenage mobs... I dont think it would really be problem. Personally if I felt threatened I would draw my sidearm and shout that I am in fear for my life. Then give them orders to keep their distance. If they proceeded to advance then they are up the creek. I am outnumbered and since they are prolly in better physical shape(youth) fleeing is out of the question. Although a thought occured to me,,, would the first shot I fire be a warning shot? A shot to a teens kneecap? or double tapping center mass? Choices, Choices, Choices.

Devin - I don't think you are entirely clear on the use of deadly force and your state laws governing LAC carrying a firearm.

1. "draw my sidearm and shout that I am in fear for my life" - this is not a recommended practice as in most states (you should check yours), a citizen may only draw their firearm if they are in IMMEDIATE fear for their (or another's) LIFE or GRIEVOUS BODILY HARM. If you have time to shout, you are not in immediate danger. A DA will most definitely use this against you. Please, find a class aimed at firearm carriers that will provide legal advice about this. Preferrably one in which handouts and classroom discussion are part of the instruction.

2. "Then give them orders to keep their distance." Again, if you are not in IMMEDIATE danger, which can usually be measured by a distance of 21' (see youtube videos "tueller drill"), this is not a reason to draw your weapon. However, if they are within 21' of you, the "Force Continuum" is in effect, and if you command them to stop and they don't, then the consequences are on them. Again, check with the local gun dealers about training for these topics, as it is YOUR responsibility to know the law and it's applications!

3. "... would the first shot I fire be a warning shot? A shot to a teens kneecap? or double tapping center mass?" These have already been responded to very well, but I would like to add that additional training in defensive pistol use, use of force, tactical pistol, etc. should answer these questions in compliance with the law of your state and how it is applied to self-defense shooting situations. And the classes are fun and you meet the nicest folks doing something you like to do ... significant other might like to come, also :lol:

4. Please be aware that this is a public forum and what you say here can and will be used against you in any shooting incident you might be involved in, in the future ... be circumspect in what you say and how you say it Google can be your friend, but it can also be the friend of a snarky DA that is out to make an example of you. Get some certified training, then come back and post how that has changed your thinking and understanding, then if the DA gets the wrong one, your attorney can print out the later one which will nullify the previous one.

5. Pray you are never caught up in a mob scene, but you are doing the best thing ... THINKING about it and what your options for escape might be. Situational awareness is the first line of self defense, so listen to your gut, pay attention when the hairs on the back of your neck stand up ... that means your subconscious has identified a danger and you should heighten your awareness until you assess the situation.

 

[since9]

When it comes to self-defense, the first thing we must remember is that we are not law enforcement. Our goal should be the defense of self and others in our immediate care (family, friends, and if you elect, nearby citizens).

So, here's my take on mobs:

1. They can form very quickly. Best way to defend yourself is to avoid them if at all possible.
2. Use brain to stay away from situations likely to result in a mob.
3. Use feet to remove yourself from a mob that forms around you.
4. Augment feet with diffusing personality. Bottom line, get out.
5. If one can't get out, don't let mob get within 21'. Take out the leader. If others charge, take out them too.

Key point: Item 5 might be illegal in your state. If so, you'll need to weigh your own options and make your own decisions. In my book, it's better to be judged by 12 than buried by 6. On a more personal note, if a mob is willing to attack me for being the honest, law-abiding citizen that I am, barring all other conceivable, reasonable, or reasonably perceived alternatives, I'd rather their feloniously criminal mobly butts take a bullet than me take a boot to my brain.

 

[Beretta9mm (army)]

one thing that can be said is unless the mob is showing that they will harm you you have no right to pull your wepon. (unless its on privit property where they are trustpassing) but none the less if you do draw your wepon as a show of force and they do anything to try and strip you of your wepon then it is alright to shoot them. at most you will be charged with branishing a wepon. witch i would gladly pleed guilty to cuze the fact that i was abil to pleed guilty is cuz i did it. better to know you have a fighting chance to live than give up and risk the chance of deth.

 

[Beretta9mm (army)]

since9,

that and if you injure one of them that just means they have to face the cops latter and thru the interagations thell have to give up some of their friends names for a reduced sentience. thus disalowing that mob to form again. or at least think twice. also sending a message out their to others that would ever consider forming their own mob or being part of one.

 

[since9]

one thing that can be said is unless the mob is showing that they will harm you you have no right to pull your wepon. (unless its on privit property where they are trustpassing) but none the less if you do draw your wepon as a show of force and they do anything to try and strip you of your wepon then it is alright to shoot them. at most you will be charged with branishing a wepon. witch i would gladly pleed guilty to cuze the fact that i was abil to pleed guilty is cuz i did it. better to know you have a fighting chance to live than give up and risk the chance of deth.

It's: Army, private, trespassing, At, brandishing, which, I, because, I, able, plead, because, death.

I know that, even thought I'm a bad speller!

As for the gist of your argument, I agree with you.

 

[dmatting]

one thing that can be said is unless the mob is showing that they will harm you you have no right to pull your wepon. (unless its on privit property where they are trustpassing)

Whoa now. Not sure what state allows that. I know in North Carolina I do not have the right to pull my weapon on someone for simply trespassing on my property. Of course, a mob of people rushing onto my property would likely cause me to fear for my life or fear that I'm gonna be beat down, but that's not really tied to the trespassing aspect.

 

[skidmark]

Beretta9mm (army) is a new guy, both to OCDO and the concept of self defense. He has a lot to learn and unfortunately right now he's up to his eyeballs in a place where the Rules of Engagement are even worse than what most of us face on a daily basis. He's also apparently challenged by the effects of a public school failure of education and the notion that his lack of skill with spelling and punctuation will not be held against him. But in spite of all that I've seen a few glimmers of hope in him.

Let's see if he's willing to be taken under our collective wings and brought up to be a citizen as opposed to an automaton who obeys any order thrown at him regardless of how many rights it infringes. (Yes, while on active duty that's going to be hard for him, but we can prep him for the day he returns home as a Private F****** Civillian.)

In the meantime, think about all the information he can give us about how armed wilding persons react when going up against an armed opponent. What better than practical knowledge about head shots vs, COM for stopping the threat RFN, or does taking out the apparent leader take the steam out of them?

stay safe.

 

[Daylen]

Whoa now. Not sure what state allows that. I know in North Carolina I do not have the right to pull my weapon on someone for simply trespassing on my property. Of course, a mob of people rushing onto my property would likely cause me to fear for my life or fear that I'm gonna be beat down, but that's not really tied to the trespassing aspect.

You should read the MS constitution, its nice. We darn well can pull the gun out and bear arms when someone is trespassing, its in defense of my property.

The right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, or property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall not be called in question, but the Legislature may regulate or forbid carrying concealed weapons.

I hear not many states have a Constitutional Castile doctrine.

 

[45acpForMe]

I have been thinking about criminal flash mobs since this summer and I see it as currently two types. 1) Get-me-some-bling mobs and 2) Get-me-some-blood mobs.

For group #1 lethal force is not necesarry since they are there to steal and leave before any response can catch them. IMHO if such a thing started at say JC Penney, an armed security guard should be able to lockdown the store (while the mob is still in it) and stand at the exits armed until police arrive. Any mob members that try to overpower and flee should be tased or pepper sprayed. I guess some could become violent and but since I am dreaming I choose to say they lay down their stolen merchandise and try to look like they had been shopping all along instead.

For group #2 (the one I worry about) a violent response may be the only solution if fleeing isn't possible. I tend to see these attacks outside somewhere with tens to hundreds of people surrounding their victims. This is where my worry of missing a bad guy and hitting an innocent person gets minimized since the mob itself is attacking. So their grouping together would in my mind increase the likelihood of hits. Again most of the mob members would probably be disuaded from continuing an attack after seeing their friends brains splatted next to them (sorry skidmark not trying to show "blood lust") so I have to think the majority would disengage. The minority may be out to prove their toughness and they would be the ones that would need to be dealt with. A gang going around looking to initiate members makes me more scared than a flash mob of bored teenagers in the sense that the latter would disengage after their casualties mounted.

In any case I try to have 30-40 rounds on me and a knife (or two). If I can make it to my car then I will either flee or grab more ammo/weapons.

Currently mobs don't have a "need" to attack so they can choose to disengage when it seems that their fun has ended. In the future if the SHTF and roving mobs are looking for food they will be less likely to disengage. So if the SHTF I will have my rifles loaded and one for each of my family friends I can arm. I hope in never comes to that but the way the world is going I can't say honestly that it ain't a possibility.

 

[Sgt. Kabukiman N.Y.P.D.]

As one who used to be a runner, I have to add my two cents and say that it's fine for people who are healthy, skinny, and used to running to keep running. I've known lots of people, myself included, who tried running once they gained some weight, and in so doing, caused temporary or permanent injury.

They days I walk, swim, and ride a bicycle. I like cycling the most, as it's just a kick in the pants.

I used to run cross country in high school. I would run roughly 1-5 miles a day during the week and ten miles per day (on dirt trails) on the weekends. I have to say it was really unhealthy actually. I can't run like that anymore due to a couple of herniated discs (which were probably caused by all the running). I like cycling the most too. I bought a hybrid bike a few years ago that I can use on the road and (lightly) off-road. I wish I could swim more but it just easier/faster to hop on the bike. Once my kids are a little bit older I'm going to teach them how to surf so I can get into the water more...

 

[Daylen]

I used to run cross country in high school. I would run roughly 1-5 miles a day during the week and ten miles per day (on dirt trails) on the weekends. I have to say it was really unhealthy actually. I can't run like that anymore due to a couple of herniated discs (which were probably caused by all the running). I like cycling the most too. I bought a hybrid bike a few years ago that I can use on the road and (lightly) off-road. I wish I could swim more but it just easier/faster to hop on the bike. Once my kids are a little bit older I'm going to teach them how to surf so I can get into the water more...

Like most people you were probably doing it wrong.

 

[Tony4310]

Here is a good one for people to think about.

Lets say you and your family are down town for an event ( any will do ). It is busy and crowded and you are sitting in your car in traffic waiting to leave said event. You notice lets say 75 to 100 teens for example. You see them start beating people at random and breaking out windows of cars with people in them and beating them violently. You notice you can not just drive away due to traffic ( both pedestrian and vehicle ) and they are moving in and around cars so fast that a foot escape with your family is impossible. What would you do in this situation?

Just a thinker.... Remind you of any recent event?

 

[Haz.]

Here is a good one for people to think about.

Lets say you and your family are down town for an event ( any will do ). It is busy and crowded and you are sitting in your car in traffic waiting to leave said event. You notice lets say 75 to 100 teens for example. You see them start beating people at random and breaking out windows of cars with people in them and beating them violently. You notice you can not just drive away due to traffic ( both pedestrian and vehicle ) and they are moving in and around cars so fast that a foot escape with your family is impossible. What would you do in this situation?

Just a thinker.... Remind you of any recent event?

This happenes Down Under every weekend. Drunken hoons take over the streets and footpaths bashing innocent victims, each other, urinating and defecating in shop fronts smashing windows and creating fear and mayhem everywhere they go. Police usually arrest a few and they are mostly released next day without being charged? We stay home in fear and trembling, never venturing out at night. The gun ban, which was promised to make Australia, where things like the above never ever happened, a "SAFER PLACE" than it was, is a complete failure! Cheers, Haz.

 

[Tony4310]

I'd love to move down under, but the gun ban keeps me from doing so.

 

[Sgt. Kabukiman N.Y.P.D.]

Like most people you were probably doing it wrong.

That is entirely possible, but not likely. I had a couple of professional trainers / coaches that I worked with that taught proper technique and body mechanics (one was a retired UCLA coach that went on to train some pretty accomplished runners). I think that running overall is hard on the body, especially if you have a tall/ heavy body type (I'm 6'3 and usually weigh around 225lbs). I think that if you have a smaller body type it may make less of an impact on your joints/spine. Genetics are also a huge factor of course. I'm no expert however, so who knows?

 

[Kirbinator]

Tsk, and civilians aren't allowed to use tear gas....

 

[skidmark]

Tsk, and civilians aren't allowed to use tear gas....

Says who?

Yes, some states, maybe. But in other states, not necessarily so.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-312

§ 18.2-312. Illegal use of tear gas, phosgene and other gases.
If any person maliciously release or cause or procure to be released in any private home, place of business or place of public gathering any tear gas, mustard gas, phosgene gas or other noxious or nauseating gases or mixtures of chemicals designed to, and capable of, producing vile or injurious or nauseating odors or gases, and bodily injury results to any person from such gas or odor, the offending person shall be guilty of a Class 3 felony.
If such act be done unlawfully, but not maliciously, the offending person shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.
Nothing herein contained shall prevent the use of tear gas or other gases by police officers or other peace officers in the proper performance of their duties, or by any person or persons in the protection of person, life or property. [emphasis added]
(Code 1950, § 18.1-70; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)

stay safe.

 

[okboomer]

Whoa now. Not sure what state allows that. I know in North Carolina I do not have the right to pull my weapon on someone for simply trespassing on my property. Of course, a mob of people rushing onto my property would likely cause me to fear for my life or fear that I'm gonna be beat down, but that's not really tied to the trespassing aspect.

In Oklahoma, we do :banana: I can meet anyone at the front door or at the property line with a gun in hand (not waving it around or pointing it at anyone, just in hand at low-ready) and there isn't anything the law can do about it.