With health care out of the way, time to define 'reasonable gun control' looms

[Beretta92FSLady]

imported post

G22Paddy wrote:

Sylvia Plath wrote:

rickomatic wrote:

Screw her, and the phony ballots she rode in on.

I would love to see the data on this.

She won only one out of three ballot counts. She complained until they were counted in her favor, then she was satisfied. I can only imagine how loud Dino Rossi's facepalm was.

Apparently she won 2 out of 3 vote counts...then a court ruling. Either she really won or she took a section out of Bush's 2000 election. Kinda funny how Rossi challenged ballot for Gregoire and four of the votes right off the bat for Rossi were cast by felons. I love Wiki:

The election was held on November 2, 2004, with the initial count showing Gregoire trailing Rossi by 261 votes. However, a legally mandated machine recount reduced that lead to only 42 votes, then a hand count that was requested and funded by the state's Democratic Party gave Gregoire a 10-vote lead. Following a State Supreme Court ruling that allowed several hundred ballots from amzbrady wrote:

I still cant believe Obama bin laden has held his presidency as long as he has. I keep thinking "America" will stand up together and take him out of office. All the polls I see have had the majority against everything he has done, cash for junkers, CEO bonus bailouts, 1st time homeowner, forget those losing their homes bailout, and health care "control", And comming soon to asouthern statenear you, Operation open borders...

Many people are against the Healthcare Bill because it did not go far enough. To say that people collectively are against it because it is "socialist" is an overgeneralization. You must get down into the meat of the discontent to realize what is really going on. Political posturing is not an efective way of sifting the (D) from the (R).

 

[Gray Peterson]

imported post

killchain wrote:

The argument "con-HCR" was being forced to pay for a good or service to live in America, as well as your obvious bias against people thinking they have to earn what they have.

Reading comprehension isn't a strong suit I take it? Did I make a statement that I support the bill that passed Congress? The answer would be no.

I was saying that the arguments against the HCR bill made by the Tea Party movement (which was the primary grassroots organizers against the HCR bill) completely failed. It looked like they were going to be 4 or 5 votes short until members of the Tea Party movement repeatedly called Congressman Jon Lewis the N-word in a chorus, repeatedly called Barney Frank the other "f-word", and spit on a Congressman (this person has been arrested). They can claim "The Liberals Lied and Set Us Up" all you want, but they failed, and no one will remember what the Pro-HCR folks did to "set them up", because it's over and the Pro-HCR folks won.

What I am saying is that IF the Democratic Party decides to push gun control like in 93 and 94 post 2010, we should NOT in any way emulate the Tea Party movement.

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

imported post

Gray Peterson wrote:

killchain wrote:

The argument "con-HCR" was being forced to pay for a good or service to live in America, as well as your obvious bias against people thinking they have to earn what they have.

Reading comprehension isn't a strong suit I take it? Did I make a statement that I support the bill that passed Congress? The answer would be no.

I was saying that the arguments against the HCR bill made by the Tea Party movement (which was the primary grassroots organizers against the HCR bill) completely failed. It looked like they were going to be 4 or 5 votes short until members of the Tea Party movement repeatedly called Congressman Jon Lewis the N-word in a chorus, repeatedly called Barney Frank the other "f-word", and spit on a Congressman (this person has been arrested). They can claim "The Liberals Lied and Set Us Up" all you want, but they failed, and no one will remember what the Pro-HCR folks did to "set them up", because it's over and the Pro-HCR folks won.

What I am saying is that IF the Democratic Party decides to push gun control like in 93 and 94 post 2010, we should NOT in any way emulate the Tea Party movement.

The Tea Party is a great idea but when it becomes mired in homophobic, racist and attacking congress people physically (yes, spitting is a physical attack) they then become the party of homophobic, racist spitters and not the party of a "better America" whatever that might actually mean.

 

[kparker]

imported post

Sylvia (and Gray),

You should know better than to take the media reports at face value.

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

imported post

kparker wrote:

Sylvia (and Gray),

You should know better than to take the media reports at face value.

LOL, I definately know better than to do that. I don't trust the media. I hope that no one here thinks that I trust the media because I seriously don't. The real question is do most people do what I do....do most people read responses from both sides to come up with a balanced decision, NO. I read both sides, listen to both sides and form my own conclusion of what is really going on here. I feel that there is nothing negative going on with the Healcare Bill. Are there bad things in it, yes. Would there be bad things if the (R) were in power and pushed something forward, yes. I do not concern myself with "conservative" or "liberal" BS.....I formulate my own view.

One thing I can say about America as a whole is that we have decended into partisanship to the infinite-degree and that scares the he11 out of me personally. If we continue down this road we are going to hjave a breakdown in social order--something we probably are in need of, unfortunately.

 

[Gray Peterson]

imported post

kparker wrote:

Sylvia (and Gray),

You should know better than to take the media reports at face value.

And you should know better that media reports at face value is the only thing that matters in terms of winning the long term war against gun control. "Assault Weapons" were successfully banned between 94 and 2004 because they were called machine guns repeatedly by both the media and the political class.

Protests are beyond worthless. The only thing that gets results are sit ins and chaining oneself to a fence(which can result in jail or prison time), contacting a politician directly, and when they fail to listen, going into the voting booth or filling out yourmail in ballot. Voters turned out in 1994 en massagainst anti-gun politicians. They didn't do "Tea Party" style protests. They did the most effective thing, which was the voter turnout operations to out the anti-gunners, including a sitting Speaker of the House.

Why do you think they're falling all over themselves to pass a national parks gun ban repeal, within 2 votes of getting carry reciprocity, and so on? It's because of the specter of 1994. They don't fear Tea Partiers. They fear US as gun owners. There's a difference, despite the overlap.

 

[gogodawgs]

imported post

kparker wrote:

Sylvia (and Gray),

You should know better than to take the media reports at face value.

I find it interesting that in the day and age of cell phone cameras, handheld video camera's and media everywhere that several congressmen walked down a main street in downtown Washington DC and there is no video or audio evidence that racial epithets were spoken. There are several witnesses that are minorities and 'tea party' protesters that state they have witnessed no such epithets being spoken. There are no anonymous sources (US PPD (Personal Protection Detail)). Yes, there is still the potential of this to have happened. Yes, it could of been agent provocateurs.

However, Gray is right image in the media is as important as what actually happened. I know that when I am out and about with my firearm OC that I am part of that image. We must all be aware of that image. I will take responsibility for my actions in the public, I hope that you will also.

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

imported post

gogodawgs wrote:

kparker wrote:

Sylvia (and Gray),

You should know better than to take the media reports at face value.

I will take responsibility for my actions in the public, I hope that you will also.

I would hope that everyone takes responsibility for their actions in public...I know I do. Here is the thing, if someone is a homophobe or racist, let it be known (it's your American rights), but you better be ready to accept the consequences of actions that you take if it goes beyond words and the person or persons you are attacking are hell-bend on self-preservation of life and limb.

To say that because there is not video of such incidents does not mean that the accusations are false. Would I be surprised that there are conservatives that are overtly homophobic and racist, absolutely not. Heck, watchin FOX news yesterday when they were holding the camera on the Tea Party protesters there were a couple of southern flags flying. Some people might not thnik that is a big deal but I tell you what, if I am out and about with my family and my partner and there is some group of people waving the southern flag you bet I would be ready for some sort of homophobic attack...why, because the fringe are extremely bigoted IMO.

 

[gogodawgs]

imported post

Sylvia Plath wrote:

gogodawgs wrote:

kparker wrote:

Sylvia (and Gray),

You should know better than to take the media reports at face value.

I will take responsibility for my actions in the public, I hope that you will also.

I would hope that everyone takes responsibility for their actions in public...I know I do. Here is the thing, if someone is a homophobe or racist, let it be known (it's your American rights), but you better be ready to accept the consequences of actions that you take if it goes beyond words and the person or persons you are attacking are hell-bend on self-preservation of life and limb.

To say that because there is not video of such incidents does not mean that the accusations are false. Would I be surprised that there are conservatives that are overtly homophobic and racist, absolutely not. Heck, watchin FOX news yesterday when they were holding the camera on the Tea Party protesters there were a couple of southern flags flying. Some people might not thnik that is a big deal but I tell you what, if I am out and about with my family and my partner and there is some group of people waving the southern flag you bet I would be ready for some sort of homophobic attack...why, because the fringe are extremely bigoted IMO.

You are correct, in the South that flag and the people that protest with it tend to be extremely bigoted.

I am not a big fan of large group protests and protestors. Group think tends to take over and radical elements tend to fester.

 

[antispam540]

imported post

As someone who's lived around the southern-flag-toting individuals, it's about state rights, not homophobia or racism (although I'm sure there are some nut-jobs who'd use it that way).

I think homosexuality is wrong, but that doesn't mean I'm going to beat up or discriminate against gay people. There's a different between homophobia and hate crimes - too many people think it's wrong to speak your mind when it comes to these sorts of PC issues.

 

[Thundar]

imported post

Gray Peterson wrote:

Right now, the only shot at taking down the HCR bill is through the legal arena, which is also a dicey game when it isn't involving a fundamental constitutional right. It ain't gonna happen.

Well that really isn't true Gray.

We lost on the soap box and the ballot box. Next we will try the jury box. If that fails there is one more box.....



















The ammunition box.

That is why we have a second amendment. To resist tyranny.

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

imported post

Thundar wrote:

Gray Peterson wrote:

Right now, the only shot at taking down the HCR bill is through the legal arena, which is also a dicey game when it isn't involving a fundamental constitutional right. It ain't gonna happen.

Well that really isn't true Gray.

We lost on the soap box and the ballot box. Next we will try the jury box. If that fails there is one more box.....



















The ammunition box.

That is why we have a second amendment. To resist tyranny.

If Healthcare for all American's is seriously thought of as tyranny then the political discourse and the ignorance coming from the right has truly jumped the rails of anything rational.

 

[antispam540]

imported post

I think we're all upset over the concept of nationalized healthcare, but the bigger issue is the provision that *forces* people to buy insurance. If they had said "we're raising taxes 3% to provide insurance for everyone" that would have been met with a lot less upset (not that anyone would have been happy). Instead, they're telling us that we have to buy something on our own - saying we don't get to choose what happens with our money.

The bill was passed against the wishes of the people, and the bill forces people to buy things they may not want to buy. That is a serious abridgment of freedom.

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

imported post

I would like to believe that people would be less upset if taxes were raised 3% as opposed to it being mandated but that just isn't the case IMO. The politics of taxes has definately jumped the rails...this is the alternative to a minority side not wanting to be at the table. There are "conservative" items in the bill. Some of the provisions that deal with small business' FWIU are from the right.



I have to say that the biggest failure of the "right" was keeping theirflock under control. Posters with our President looking like Hitler, Stalin, etc. are counterproductive and there is a price to pay for that type of disrespect for the office of the greatest, most powerful nation on Earth. Hopefully the right will spend more time offering up ideas than encouraging their flock to engage in misinformation campaigns and scare tactics.

Do not be mistaken, America is currently in a social war that is going to determine the future of America. Healthcare is just one of many battles that are going to be won and lost on both sides. This is just the beginning.

 

[DEROS72]

imported post

I grew up in an upper middle class neighborhood outside of Houston in the late 50's early 60's.All of our schools I went to had the conferderate flag flying and in grade school we sang Dixie before class.At least when I was growing up people where I lived were much happier.We earned our own way.My father went to college and worked for NASA.So in my working life I learned those ethics and never had a problem getting a high paying job.I served in Vietnam and my healthcare is taken care of however I never used it untill recently.I always paid for my own when I worked.

So I don't get this attitude that people think they have a right to others wealth.This entitlement crap has got to stop.If someone screws up their life or career its not up to those who don't to pay his way for the rest of their life.Health care is not a right unless you provide your own.A pay check is not a right unless you earn it yourself.Housing is not a right unless you pay the rent with your own money.No one is entitled to what I have earned over the years.It's not a lot but I earned it so why should I give up some of my comfort so someone else can get a welfare check.

People say well your'e on social security disibility.I earned that.I served in the military and worked for 39 years paying into the system.Capitalism is an excellent system as it rewards those who work ,or invent a great product or something else they can market.If someone makes millions on a product they invent why do you think he doesn't deserve the benefits of that.I have said this before, my last 15 years was in management.When I took over a company in Palm springs I put everyone on commision because some thought they were owed a paycheck just for being there.Well we found out who was willing to earn there money and who stood in an unemplyment line.Get off this entitlement BS people no one owes you anything.

By the way I have been to 3 tea parties and never have I seen the behavior described above..

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

imported post

I don't beleive that anyone should have access to or be entitled to other people's wealth. Healthcare for everyone has nothing to do with people's wealth. it has to do with the lack of access and affordable health, something that is surely going to be fixed. Maybe I am a bit of an optimist.

 

[DEROS72]

imported post

Silvia ..where do you think the money comes from for so called affordable health care ? It comes from additional taxes.The way to affordable health care is to let it compete in the free market from state to stae like car insurance.I shouldn't have to pay higher taxes for so called affordable health care.I don't need health care reform .

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

imported post

If you make more that 200k a year as an individual or 250k a year as a family then you are going to be taxed. Does that meet the threshold of "redistribution of wealth" not even close IMO.

If the Fed's were to pass a law that required anyone who makes 200k+ a year to hand over 80% of their income in order to "redistribute" the funds equally amongst all American's I would be completely against that. But those are apples and oranges.

 

[DEROS72]

imported post

That is redistribution of wealth.My stepdaughter who put herself through school and paid for her masters is vp of a large Manhatten communications company.She is in that income bracket.She worked her way through school all these years for her benefit no one elses.Why should she now give up what she worked for to pay for someone else via higher taxes. She pays for her health care.People think because thay can't earn that much those that do owe them something.Redistrubution of wealth is a socialist concept and no one wants that.People think that everthing should be egual that no one should have more that the next guy.Thats wrong.You should have what you yourself earn and nothing else.Pay for your own health care.If you can afford it how is that the problem of someone who can.??

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

imported post

DEROS72 wrote:

you can afford it how is that the problem of someone who can.??

I have to say that this question is part of what's wrong with America. America is a capitalist/socialist country. Socialism exists in many aspects of America. Your daughter going to high school, unless it was a private school, is a socialist program. My daughter has home schooling, does this mean we are less "socialist" than some of my fellow open-carriers? We are surrounded by socialism.

The problem with throwing the term socialism around so loosely is that it loses its intended effect. Personally I am confident in the direction of America and believe that a better society is a society that cares for all people.