Woodcarver was shot four times in his side by officer, autopsy shows

[ridgerunner98570]

As a resident of this state, I am very concerned for what I see as a rise in shootings that might not be quite warranted by law enforcement officers of my state. This and several other shootings lately do not pass the smell test. And the back and forth banter of two of our members on this forum does not help to solve what may be a wrongful death. I hope that justice is done, and is swift, no matter which side it may come down on.

 

[Ajetpilot]

I don't know the answer to your questions except these two, and the answer is an emphatic yes - at least where I work.

The fact that the information isn't yet public may frustrate you, but that is pretty standard. The same would apply if you were being investigated, prior to the filing of charges or determination not to file charges.

Where I work, as a firearms and tactics instructor I would be a part of the shooting review to determine if training was faulty or if it could be improved to change the outcome. As you know, sometimes the outcome was chosen by the shooter and sometimes by the shot.

I was, for many years, an aircraft accident investigator. My focus was not on finding fault, but on finding procedures that would prevent future similar mishaps. The psychological frame of mind that a pilot was in at the time of the mishap, the physiologic situation in which he found himself, was all part of the investigation.

Again, my focus was on prevention. Another parallel investigation focused on fault finding. I would hope that procedures could be implemented that would preclude future similar mishaps, and that these recommendations could be disseminated throughout the LE community.

 

[Citizen]

SNIP...Amused, not annoyed...

Lying already? My, my, my. Your earlier comments were not amusement. But, then you knew that. You're just deliberately spinning the context to misdirect. But, a little scrutiny will tell the tale: If I am so unannoying, why do you feel so compelled to respond to me or my comments? Hmmmm? And a multi-quote commentary/reply at that.

Oh, and then there is the "attacking the messenger" gambit you just used, rather than dealing substantively with the message. Old tactic. Very, old. More misdirection. Oh, and a personal attack in this case. Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.

And there is the whole light-hearted thing. School-yard argument tactics.

All of which just add up to evasion.

Keep talking.

 

[Citizen]

SNIP...I worry about American citizens and opinion, of which there is plenty to be concerned about already.

Now, I wonder how that state of affairs came to pass. (sarcasm)

You don't suppose years of Blue Wall of Silence, heavy-handedness, small-but-serious rights violations during street encounters, "we're the law", elitism, and so forth had anything to do with it, do you? (rhetorical question)

Oh, no. People just woke up this morning, and after years of solid integrity from their police, the public just decided to abandon all their "trust" in police. Yeah, that's it.

 

[Doug Huffman]

In my community the metaphor of an emotional bank account was introduced by one of our Chiefs of Police, Roddy Perry or Reuben Greenberg (I think the former). It was an effective tool for improving relations with the departments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_Greenberg

I believe that the nation's law enforcement agencies, as a whole, continue to overdraw their account. I know that individual departments maintain healthy balances of trust with their employing community.

 

[maclean]

I was, for many years, an aircraft accident investigator. My focus was not on finding fault, but on finding procedures that would prevent future similar mishaps. The psychological frame of mind that a pilot was in at the time of the mishap, the physiologic situation in which he found himself, was all part of the investigation.

Again, my focus was on prevention. Another parallel investigation focused on fault finding. I would hope that procedures could be implemented that would preclude future similar mishaps, and that these recommendations could be disseminated throughout the LE community.

Very interesting point, and I agree.

 

[amlevin]

Now, I wonder how that state of affairs came to pass. (sarcasm)

You don't suppose years of Blue Wall of Silence, heavy-handedness, small-but-serious rights violations during street encounters, "we're the law", elitism, and so forth had anything to do with it, do you? (rhetorical question)

Oh, no. People just woke up this morning, and after years of solid integrity from their police, the public just decided to abandon all their "trust" in police. Yeah, that's it.

 

[maclean]

In my community the metaphor of an emotional bank account was introduced by one of our Chiefs of Police, Roddy Perry or Reuben Greenberg (I think the former). It was an effective tool for improving relations with the departments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_Greenberg

I believe that the nation's law enforcement agencies, as a whole, continue to overdraw their account. I know that individual departments maintain healthy balances of trust with their employing community.

Colorful guy near the end, sounds like.

The ideas in the article regarding community oriented policing are sound, and are followed by several WA police agencies.

I had not heard of the bank account, but it's as good an example as any.

 

[maclean]

You're right, of course.

I'm all done with it.

 

[Citizen]

No offense, Amlevin; but so is the sorry state of policing in this country.

A while back I read about a police shooting or something, maybe in San Diego, where a cop spokesman was complaining about the public reaction. Huh!?! They won't clean up their ranks, they're known by the public to (insert list here), or to tolerate from their brother officers (the inserted list). Do they really think their PR machine and image machine just erases all the bad personal experiences, all the illegal ID demands, all the "we're the law" attitudes shoved in people's faces?

So, when Mac voices a concern about public opinion, I have to wonder, why now? Why not before the guy was shot? Why not permanently solve the public opinion issue by cleaning out the ranks, rocketing integrity to a high standard? The public does not come by this distrust by integrity and high-standards in the industry.

 

[Citizen]

In my community the metaphor of an emotional bank account was introduced by one of our Chiefs of Police, Roddy Perry or Reuben Greenberg (I think the former). It was an effective tool for improving relations with the departments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_Greenberg

I believe that the nation's law enforcement agencies, as a whole, continue to overdraw their account. I know that individual departments maintain healthy balances of trust with their employing community.

The thing I notice is the focus on improving relations. Where is the focus on improving integrity, respect for rights, diminishing or abolishing the Blue Wall of Silence? (rhetorical question).

 

[okkid]

shooting

This woulf of never went this way if he was just left alone.He was a carver and it was his life BUT! no here come a wana be tuff guy and kill a human.Like is so short and I hopr it stays in your head every time you want to go have fun that you took what was fyn for thid guy.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht... an officer can still pose a threat."[/QUOTE]

 

[fight4your_rights]

You're right, of course.

I'm all done with it.

Some day you should let me know how that Kimber is/was working out for you, if you are so inclined.

 

[maclean]

The thing I notice is the focus on improving relations. Where is the focus on improving integrity, respect for rights, diminishing or abolishing the Blue Wall of Silence? (rhetorical question).

As an open and directly honest question in an attempt to bridge a gap here....

Do you believe those two are different?

I'm genuinely curious to hear how, if so.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

No offense, Amlevin; but so is the sorry state of policing in this country.

A while back I read about a police shooting or something, maybe in San Diego, where a cop spokesman was complaining about the public reaction. Huh!?! They won't clean up their ranks, they're known by the public to (insert list here), or to tolerate from their brother officers (the inserted list). Do they really think their PR machine and image machine just erases all the bad personal experiences, all the illegal ID demands, all the "we're the law" attitudes shoved in people's faces?

So, when Mac voices a concern about public opinion, I have to wonder, why now? Why not before the guy was shot? Why not permanently solve the public opinion issue by cleaning out the ranks, rocketing integrity to a high standard? The public does not come by this distrust by integrity and high-standards in the industry.

I couldn't agree with this more.

I just dealt with more police harassment, of course the courts and the police don't see it that way, and you should have seen the hoops they wanted me to go through to get a complaint form, only to tell me at the end I could do it online. Sorry, every time you make my life a hassle expect like in turn so no online complaints for me, hard copy mailed to the Chief and the Mayor and a nice personal visit from me.

 

[Citizen]

The thing I notice is the focus on improving relations. Where is the focus on improving integrity, respect for rights, diminishing or abolishing the Blue Wall of Silence? (rhetorical question).

As an open and directly honest question in an attempt to bridge a gap here....

Do you believe those two are different?

I'm genuinely curious to hear how, if so.

Oh, come on. We know you're not stupid. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the one does not equal the other. I have to assume your post is another cop trick to "put it up there and see what sticks or who will buy the premise" with a little image polishing thrown in by the oh-so reasonable sounding "genuine attempt to bridge a gap here."

So far there is nothing posted to indicate community policing has as a central focus cleaning up the ranks and abolishing the Blue Wall of Silence. There is no reason at all to think that community policing is not heavily influenced by a desire to gin up police image, without actually cleaning up the things that led to poor image.

Even OCers do better than your profession. On this forum, when an OCer suggests or declares he is going to do this or that to violate the law or someone's property rights, invariably other posters chime in and call him on it, shoot him down, correct him, etc. I can't recall seeing that on a cop forum; the most I've seen is a reply saying the replier would follow the law, sans criticism.

Look, you're either going to start acknowledging the pervasiveness and harm of the BWS, and knock off the evasions, or just keep quiet on the subject, or you'll be shown a biased cop-kisser apologist who can't even discuss or argue honorably. I'll do the showing.

And your evasions suggest more than you might guess, given your solid connection to the field--you wouldn't be evasive if you didn't know how deep it was, and its seriousness. Your evasiveness strongly suggests you have some degree of agreement with it, too. Otherwise, why protect it by being evasive?

I'm too experienced to follow you around and argue your evasions. And, I'm too experienced to let you seize the initiative by answering your misdirecting questions. (Heh, heh. Unless it gives me an opening to expose more of the problems in your area.) You see that 9K post count by my name, right? You're not arguing with a rookie here.

So, why don't you knock off the nonsense, and start shooting straight? There are other cops on this forum who do.

 

[Trigger Dr]

Citizen,
Having you on this forum is like losing two good men. Give it a break, it is very obvious that you have a boner for LE. Did you have a few bad encounters that "were the fault of the cops"?

 

[gogodawgs]

Citizen,
Having you on this forum is like losing two good men. Give it a break, it is very obvious that you have a boner for LE. Did you have a few bad encounters that "were the fault of the cops"?

+1 (It gets old)

 

[Citizen]

Citizen,
Having you on this forum is like losing two good men. Give it a break, it is very obvious that you have a boner for LE. Did you have a few bad encounters that "were the fault of the cops"?

+1 (It gets old)

Look fellas, I'm not insensitive to the comments of two respected members of the forum. Really, I'm not.

In return, I ask the same or similar consideration. If you have something to say, call me on my facts or analysis. "It gets old", etc. isn't really something to which one can meaningfully reply.

Mac opened the door, and I called him on it. The longer the discussion/argument went, the further he evaded. He talked a good talk on this forum recently, but as soon as I applied pressure in an indefensible area, the nice-guy reasonableness disappeared. After my last post, I figured the fight was pretty much over.

To reply to TriggerDr's question, I have first hand experience with police, in addition to a fair amount of reading. My own experiences are only part of the picture. But, when my own experiences turned my attention to reading, and the reading confirms that my own experiences are not isolated, then yes, I developed zero patience for cops who violate rights or tolerate their colleagues' violations.

Perhaps we have different information on policing. Perhaps I am less willing to make excuses. I don't know. But, I can back up my position with facts and reasonable inferences derived from those facts.

For the record, I have been seized by police five times since 2006. Three of those seizures were immediately recognizeable as illegal. Only one of them had anything to do with my gun or OC. Lets think about that for a second. Sixty percent of the seizures were illegal. Twenty percent had to do with my gun. Forty percent had nothing to do with my gun. Meaning I was not a target because of my gun. Meaning I was nobody special. Meaning I could have been anybody. Meaning other people are being seized illegally, too. The remaining two seizures--forty percent--while facially legal immediately turned into fishing expeditions that had nothing to do with the reason for the seizure. One of those fishing expeditions resulted in a police officer comment so wildly insane it beggars the imagination that a cop could or would make it.

This year I was treated to very heavy hostility for declining to identify myself beyond name and phone number during a police encounter. I had called the police. I was not even a suspect. I was the good guy, doing my job reporting something to the police. Read that again. I was not even a suspect and I was treated with hostility for exercising my rights.

So, taken together my personal experiences don't reflect well at all on police. And, remember, I'm a middle aged white guy who dresses neatly and maintains good grooming habits. When I couple my personal experience with a fair amount of reading on the subject, I find that policing in this country is completely out of hand.

If you all have a different opinion, fair enough. If you disagree with me, perhaps I can steer you to the information I've seen. You might still have a different opinion, but at least you'll see what I've seen.

 

[maclean]

Sir Citizen,

I've been on forums since before the web existed in modern parlance. Rookie, indeed.

I tried in earnest to engage you, only to have you twist my every word and attempt to malign my profession and my personal integrity.

There are those here who have met me in person - professionally and personally. None of them have complaint.

I've nothing to prove to you, and will simply ignore you from this post forward.