worst case scenario

[Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman]

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Brad_Krause wrote:

Nick of WI Carry Inc:

The original question, and title of this thread, is about the "worst case scenario." I answered it, and expanded upon the scope a bit based on what has happened to people who lawfully open carried. Persecution and bias against open carry does not stop at the state line.

Post Attorney General memorandum  is admittedly different from pre-memorandum, but that is a moving target. If you remember, the Police Chief's Association agreed post-memorandum (according to the paper) unanimously to take people down at gunpoint, disarm them, and make them prove their innocence. Someone (who is not you) sent legal papers to the police chiefs. Whether by coincidence or design, each chief rescinded that decision at approximately the same time the papers arrived. Excepting, of course, West Allis, who had a different take on things.

While you stand on your self-made pulpit and condemn me as a fear-mongering opportunist, you extend your hand out soliciting donations, something I have never done. You condemn how I do things, even though what I have done has benefited the majority. Meanwhile you attempt to get the state school zone ban lifted, subjecting us to the federal ban. Something tells me the current maximum penalty of 9 months in jail is a lot better than the federal penalty of 5 years in prison, but what do I know?

Ok, lets set a couple things straight and put this one to bed.

First, you have asked for donations. Anyone who's been a part of this forum for a while knows you are also Pointman, and Pointman was frequently soliciting donations for "Brad Krause's" defense. I don't have a problem with you soliciting donations for your defense. (though I do have a problem with the dishonesty of saying you didn't.) Do you deny you are also pointman? And do you deny pointman lobbied for donations for Brad Krause on here?

Honesty is important.

If you recall I gave you $500. I strongly supported you Brad. It was AFTER you began to PM people and sabotage the efforts of me and others that I could no longer support you. I was one of your strongest supporters Brad (pointman)

As for my claim that you are fear-mongering. I believe the evidence supporting that claim is already documented in this thread. However, people may exercise their own free-will, read what has been documented in this thread (if you haven't gone back and edited your previous comments (something pointman (you) were infamous for) and decide if you were fear-mongering or helping answer a question with a realistic factual answer. I have nothing else to say on that subject, this thread can speak for itself.

You condemn how I do things, even though what I have done has benefited the majority.

I was your strongest supporter Brad. When you began to sabotage the efforts of others I could no longer support you. Do I condemn your sabotage of the efforts of people on here. Yes I do. I make no apologies for that. Yes Brad. I condemn "how you do things" when you did things with dishonesty and sabotage of others efforts.

Meanwhile you attempt to get the state school zone ban lifted, subjecting us to the federal ban. Something tells me the current maximum penalty of 9 months in jail is a lot better than the federal penalty of 5 years in prison, but what do I know?

What do you know? I don't know.... I don't care. I know what our attorney John Monroe who has extensive experience with litigating these kinds of cases knows. I'm confident he has much more experience in legal matters than you. I know what Wisconsin Carry's new board member who is a litigator with experience litigating (and winning) constitutional challenges here in Wisconsin knows more than you know.

If you remember, the Police Chief's Association agreed post-memorandum (according to the paper) unanimously to take people down at gunpoint, disarm them, and make them prove their innocence. Someone (who is not you) sent legal papers to the police chiefs. Whether by coincidence or design, each chief rescinded that decision at approximately the same time the papers arrived. Excepting, of course, West Allis, who had a different take on things.

I recall that Milwaukee Police Chief ED FLYNN went on TV promising to do what you describe above. I know that many in the community including Jeff Wagner former federal prosecutor who has a radio program went on the air condemning his egregious statements immediately suggesting Chief Flynn "call his attorney". I suspect pressure came down on Ed Flynn from all sides BUT if "legal papers" you claim to have sent was what did the trick. KUDO'S to you Brad. If you would focus on all these things that you claim to have done and stop sabotaging the things other people are doing... We wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[J.Gleason]

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WHAT! you have got to be kidding me! Why would you come on here and use two different names unless you have something to hide?

This brings things into a whole new perspective. Makes everything a lot more clear now doesn't it. Wow!

It all makes sense now.

 

[Spartacus]

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Brad_Krause wrote:

While you stand on your self-made pulpit and condemn me as a fear-mongering opportunist, you extend your hand out soliciting donations...

And are you accusing the Chairman of WI Carry Inc. of soliciting donations for his own personal use? How boorish. I have seen firsthand how all of these gentlemen spend their own time and money in the effort to promote our cause.

 

[Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman]

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To clarify, I can understand why one might want to post under 2 different names. Given that law enforcement monitors this site, while Brad's municipal citation was being handled, I wouldn't want to post under my name either.

The issue I have in that regard its is disingenuous and dishonest for Brad to claim the high road that Wisconsin Carry solicits donations and he has never. That is a lie. He has. Pointman (who is Brad Krause) aggressively sought donations back when his municipal case was ongoing.

And again, I don't have a problem with anyone soliciting donations. I'm just not going to stand back and let him claim the high-road and altruistic purpose because WCI takes donations.

As to usernames.

I post under only 1 username because I stand by what I say. Everyone here knows that I use to post under hugh_jarmis before I left the board. I would have never returned if not for the fact that when we started WCI I thought it was a disservice to the organization and would not fulfill the role of chairman not to post. I have never used my old username since. IIRC Brad Krause and Pointman use to both post in the same thread. I think thats underhanded.

As for the money Wisconsin Carry obtains through membership and donations.

Wisconsin Carry is incorporated as a non-profit Wisconsin Corporation. We have a board of directors and officers who are all 100% volunteer. Our corporate governing documents prohibit us from ever being paid for our time or our efforts on behalf of Wisconsin Carry. We account for every penny of donations and every penny of expenses. Money is held in a corporate account linked to Wisconsin Carry's Federal EIN # (I think thats the correct acronym)

Every penny goes to our efforts on behalf of our members.

 

[Tree_Planter]

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Nik,

If this is not an ongoing attack, why is it you try to discredit the comment I made by attacking my character? Instead of you simply saying, "There is also an up side I would like to mention" you try to evangelize open carry? Has this become a cult where only your viewpoint is accepted? Do you believe this will further a goal of people who carry?

We do things differently, and instead of giving me a call or meeting in person and explaining why what you are doing is a smart decision, you mud-sling. That tells me you do not have a sound plan and are making poor decisions.

Anyone can call me, send an e-mail, or meet in person. If we disagree on something we can talk about it, and if we still disagree we part friends and hope each is successful so things turn out well for everyone. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and it is not my place to force one upon them.

Sabotaging your endeavors is pretty bold language, disagreeing with your approach is more accurate.

If I am factually wrong, explain the situation. I make mistakes too.

If you think another point needs to be discussed, add it in. In this topic I expanded the question slightly and explained why. You could have easily commented, "I realize people prepare for the "worst case scenario" all the time, which is part of why people carry guns, but the everyday expectation is much better..."

 

[McX]

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no good will come of these arguements, other than further division, and damage to the reputations of all envolved. i ask everyone to abandon this dispute.

 

[Master Doug Huffman]

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YES! Didn't trust Anony Mouse I and SOAB! if untrustworthy Anony Mouse II isn't just another sockpuppet! But well done, gulling us for so long.

 

[McX]

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my, things are getting grim here. i take wisdom from the words, and things of my time. so therefor i offer this song lyrics here for thought by all envolved;

i am no better, neither are you,
we are the same whatever we do,
you love me, you hate me, you know me and then,
still can't figure out the bag i'm in,
i am every day people.

perhapse we should all remember we are every day people.

*corrected spelling error

 

[davegran]

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McX wrote:

no good will come of these arguements, other than further division, and damage to the reputations of all envolved. i ask everyone to abandon this dispute.

John and Mike should create a new sub-forum called "The Cage", where members who want to gouge and grapple can do it to their heart's content without spattering blood on the rest of us. "Thread moved".

Fade in on THE CAGE:

"Two men enter, one man leaves"....
"Two men enter, one man leaves"....
"Two men enter, one man leaves"....
"Two men enter, one man leaves"....
"Two men enter, one man leaves"....
"Two men enter, one man leaves"....

Pretty ridiculous, huh? Apologies to Mel Gibson and Tina Turner.

 

[Spartacus]

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Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman wrote:

- arrest on felony charges
- permanent loss of income
- labeled a criminal by family and friends
- loss of relationships
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-
-
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- unwanted change of address
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- unmanageable stress leading to murder/suicide

I'd like to know who was arrested for lawfully OC'ing in Wisconsin who then committed murder/suicide?

I'd like to know post AG memo who has been LAWFULLY OC'ing in Wisconsin who was arrested on FELONY charges.

I'd like to know post AG memo who has had permanent loss if income from lawfully OC'ing in Wisconsin.

I'd like to know post AG memo who in Wisconsin was lawfully open-carrying, arrested, and labeled a criminal by their family and friends.

Brad its easy to cry "mudslinger" and "we are all brothers" after you have thrown the first stone and subsequently got your ass kicked.

Answer the questions that Nik raised above and we will call it a draw. You can't can you, because they are falsehoods.

 

[J.Gleason]

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My question is what did you do with all of the donations you received for your legal expenses Brad?

You never filed a civil rights suit. You just turned the other cheek. How is that furthering our cause?

People here donated to your legal fund for the purpose of you pursuing a suit in equity. Why would you back down and do nothing when you had the suit won from the start? What was the point in that?

If you are going to criticize WCI for taking a small payout on Frank Hannah Rocks case then maybe you should explain why you never went for a payout at all.

I think this is more a Brad issue then anything else. As long as everything turned out all right for Brad, screw everyone else.

It all makes sense now, that is why Pointman was such a strong advocate for training. It was the money in your pocket agenda.

Let me remind you of something, when you point your finger at someone, you have three pointing back at you.

Nik and I have had our go around over politics, it can be a real pain in the ass discussion for anyone. That is why many people avoid political discussions. I never thought, nor would I ever think that Nik would screw anyone over to try and make a cheap buck.

I know and so do many here that he has in the past and probably will in the future donated much of his hard earned money to help out fellow carriers and our cause.

What have you donated Brad? Have you donated to help out anyone? Have you even joined WCI? What did you do with all of the donations you received and did not use? Because I know for a fact that there was not a whole lot of litigation done on your case. It was pretty cut and dry as the judge seen it.

Care to share just how much your legal defense cost? Care to share just how much you collected in donations?

Care to share as to why you backed down and did not stand up for your rights after you won the first decision? I mean you claim to be an "Advocate for Civil Rights and A man who still plants trees while armed."

I think you owe us more answers then the notorius Corey Graf. Or are you just like him?

I am glad this all came out in the wash before your training session started.

 

[Master Doug Huffman]

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One cannot ape the business practices of an gun controller organization without being thought just another gun controller, from the left or the right (and the left's gun controllers are more honest).

 

[Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman]

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Brad... This is your typical M.O. from your days as posting as pointman. You sling mud, sabotage and then try to take the high road when you get called out.

You have misrepresented fact in this thread repeated times. Where you did, I called you out.

You have questioned the motives and methods of Wisconsin carry and our legal team. I have a duty to respond to those things.

I thought WCI had a good case with Frank since there were several clear-cut rights issues, but the case was settled with a small pay-out instead--$10,000 means little to a large city, so what did you accomplish other than paying an attorney?

Coming from a guy who chose to let police abuse his rights and do nothing??? Coming from a guy who was given a great deal of money from people after you intimated that you would file a civil suit? Your criticism falls short. Brad, how much $10,000 means to Racine is subjective. What did no damages against West Allis mean to West Allis?

As for the amount of the award from a LEGAL perspective. Our attorney advised us that if we went to trial, got a sympathetic jury, the damage award would likely be about the same. He advised us to take it. I'm sorry that you believe that we could have gotten more. You are not a lawyer. Our attorney is. Under the rule 68 offer of judgement, had we not agreed to the damage judgement after it was offered, had we not been awarded more than that, we would have had to cover legal fees for Racine.

The state school zone ban is probably not the best choice of suits. If you win, we are in a worse position because of the federal ban. If you instead challenged concealed carry on a constitutional level you automatically win the school zone ban at both levels, depending on the approach. With so many politicians wanting concealed carry now that we have open carry back, this is winnable.

I'm sorry that you don't think the state school zone ban is a good choice of suits. Our attorneys feel differently. We discussed a legal strategy involving many different possible legal challenges. We felt this one was the best one.

In Wisconsin, we have a right to carry. The state school zone ban (which has almost identical language to the federal ban) is the biggest encumbrance to law abiding citizens exercising their right to carry. That combined with the fact that looking at the school zone, it practically forecloses a right to carry for hundreds of thousands of Wisconsin residents makes a constitutional challenge a solid strategy.

We don't know what the outcome of that ongoing lawsuit will be, the decision (if in our favor) may be broad or it may be limited. Because the federal ban has nearly identical language, whatever victory we achieve in our federal suit (broad or limited) it stands to reason that decision could likely have precedent against the federal ban (as the federal ban has essentially identical language)

In other words, if the state school zone ban is deemed unconstitutional because it practically forecloses a right to carry in many parts of the state, the federal ban would also be unconstitutional as well because that statute has the exact same it poses the exact same foreclosure of rights.

I'm confident our attorneys have more experience than you Brad but you are obviously welcome to share your legal strategies on the forum here.

Ironically... We have received STRONG support for our lawsuit from groups all across the state (and outside the state)

The only people who have expressed criticism of the suit are you and gene german. Why? Is it because neither of you want to see it easier for law-abiding citizens to be able to carry without having to go through your training course and get a permit? Are you worried that with the school zone ban gone, many people would just open-carry and be less interested in getting their conceal carry permit, thus not needing your and Gene's training classes?

As for calling you... Don't try the high-road now Brad. You have misrepresented yourself so many times, talking to you would be pointless. I have no confidence in the truth of things you say (or post) I've already detailed those things above (which you have chosen not to respond to because you can't defend them) (you did lie when you said you've never asked for donations) Why believe you now?

I believe we've covered everything to be covered here. I believe this thread speaks for itself. I will leave the last words to you. Yes, I chose to get in a fight with a skunk in this thread. I recognized going in, that when you fight with a skunk, you come out stinky even if you win. But I can't stand lies and I can't stand misrepresentation. Call it a character-flaw.

Carry on...

 

[Tree_Planter]

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My answering a question is certainly not "throwing the first stone." That is as ridiculous as calling it fear-mongering.

I did not solicit donations, and in retrospect, should have. I am still in debt because of fighting the situation instead of taking a plea.

I do not recall anyone soliciting donations on my behalf. I was busy trying to keep things together and may have missed something, but I am pretty sure any help was because someone offered and not because of a request. The Wisconsin Patriots did set up a way for people who wanted to help to do so. If someone helped it was voluntary, not required.

If you have something to the contrary on that, let me know. There are several "gun rights" people that glommed on to the story and made it sound like they were involved, most saying people should donate to their cause. None of that came my way.

As far as who helped and how, you may recall Judge Murphy said it was destined to be a Supreme Court case. That should tell you it was not the smooth road of getting a ticket as many people imagine.

Do I owe people more, or do people need to stand up for their own rights?

None of this is about me, or you, but about rights. I like to build bridges, you like to storm in with a tank and open-fire. Casualties don't seem to matter to you, as long as you got some rounds off and media attention, even bad attention because "more people know about 'us'."

Maybe to you my butt does need a good kicking. What will you title the press release? "The government didn't take him down, so we did!" How about, "We quashed his right to have an opinion!" Not very American, is it?

 

[J.Gleason]

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And where is this going? Your going to the extreme now. "Butt Kicking?" who said anything about that Pointman? Butt kicking was never brought up. Again you are avoiding the questions.

How much was donated? Don't say none because we know that isn't true.

How much did your legal defense cost? Don't say your still paying because with the fact that the "Other side" chose not to continue. It lessened your legal fees tremendously.

How much of the donations are left? and How much was given to Gene German and the Wisconsin patriots?

Stop avoiding the questions and lets get this over with. Or was this nothing more than a ploy for the Wisconsin patriots to get some attention. It didn't work did it.
Maybe it was Gene German who called the police on you.

By the way doesn't the title "Pointman" mean you are willing to lead the way?
Looks like you got lost along the way.

 

[Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman]

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Brad_Krause wrote:

I did not solicit donations,

I do not recall anyone soliciting donations on my behalf.

Are you serious?

I'm sure the Wisconsin Patriots who were collecting money for you are glad you remember their kind efforts.

Your lies continue. Here are links. These links show all the activities of The Wisconsin Patriots who were taking donations on your behalf AND they show you posting (as pointman) encouraging donations as well. Again, I have no problem with soliciting donations (I gave you $500) but why are you lying Brad? Its odd! Your memory can't be that bad, this is a little over a year ago.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=20462&forum_id=57&highlight=brad+donate

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=19480&forum_id=57&highlight=brad+donate

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=21079&forum_id=57&highlight=brad+krause+contribute

And I'll remind everyone Brad/Pointman has a habit of going back and editing his posts when he's caught in his lies. NOTE at the bottom of posts it shows when they are edited. If Brad tries to log back in as pointman and edit his posts to cover-up his lies, it will reflect in that notation.

This is sad. Brad, SO many people supported you back then. I was one of them. SO many people wished you well. Its your devious behavior, pm'ing people on the forum discouraging them from doing things and participating in events (thats the sabotage I refer to) and the lies that have caused guys like me to distrust you and question your motives. It makes me sad. Honestly, I supported you 1000% before all the devious behavior and lies came to light.

 

[Tree_Planter]

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Nik:

I stand corrected. There was a lot of effort put in to the case on many fronts, and I appreciate it. The ending on the part of the judge may have been a bit weak, but was a good win for everyone, and that is why we were there.

Many people including you showed up. You and I shook hands, and I thanked you for everything you did. You publicly complained that wasn't enough, then publicly complained again when I had time to get back on my feet and send you a letter. I am sorry you feel that way. I think I even called and left a message to talk about it but the call wasn't returned. There is not really anything more I can do.

Shortly after the AG memo there was some sort of public "something" being scheduled, maybe a picnic, and I was not in support. Several representatives were attempting to introduce legislation banning open carry, and a group of guys with guns having a party was not going to help the matter, according to both sides in Madison. I cannot say you were not in Madison trying to fix the problem, but I can say I did not see you there.

I remember asking you to show up for the Greenfield meeting, and you said you were going to the gym instead. You did not show up at any of the other meetings either. I didn't take it personally, you just had other things to do.

As it turned out, I did obtain further education related to firearms, developed an educational program for those who want to broaden their knowledge by such means, and continue to donate my time to causes I think will succeed. I also continue to wear a smile and go armed on my property, much to the dismay of one neighbor in particular.

I'm not perfect, it's just the way it is. I did not ask to be in this position, I did not want to be in this position, in fact, I did everything within reason to avoid being in this position. Still, here I am. I try to make the best of it.

Brad Krause
Instructor, Wisconsin Civil Rights Advocate, and someone who still plants trees armed

 

[Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman]

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Ah... truth... very well.

Lets move on