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Individual rights v. governent intervention

ATM

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"Every" misconception and "feigned curiosity"?
...

Correct. I may answer or comment on some while dismissing others.

To entice me beyond that is your own responsibility - I'd need to see a bit more genuine effort on your part.

Try new bait. Try reading and addressing or refuting some of the many resources provided. Try something.
 

stealthyeliminator

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And I greatly appreciate you finally conceding what every other proponent of anarchy has been loathe to admit.
This is exactly the point I've been waiting for someone to admit.
Again, I appreciate you finally conceding what others have refused to admit. It makes the point very clear.
Sir, that the air that you're basking in is one of victory, is but a figment of your imagination... I've run out of time, again, to keep engaging in this discussion as fast as others can reply, so perhaps I'll reply again in a few days or so. Perhaps we can hold off our celebrations?
 

georg jetson

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You are engaging in personal sniping and personal insults rather than sticking to the issues. Such conduct does not advance the discussion. Such conduct is not in harmony with the rules of the forum, nor of our oft quoted aphorism of "an armed society [being] a polite society."

Disagree, discuss, and debate without making it personal, no matter how much you may dislike me or my "style".

Charles

No I'm not and you're continued claim that I am is offensive to me and not in harmony with the rules of this forum. Perhaps you should offer some points relevant to the discusion.
 

Grapeshot

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quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by georg jetson

No. I havent done any of the things you say.

You are engaging in personal sniping and personal insults rather than sticking to the issues. Such conduct does not advance the discussion. Such conduct is not in harmony with the rules of the forum, nor of our oft quoted aphorism of "an armed society [being] a polite society."

Disagree, discuss, and debate without making it personal, no matter how much you may dislike me or my "style".

Charles
Indeed OCDO takes a dim view of personal attacks. Such are just not necessary and diminish us all..

Better to stick to the content of the thread and leave personal references out of one's responses.
 

stealthyeliminator

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Most of my responses and resource suggestions here have been and will remain aimed at interested readers, not correcting your every misconception and feigned curiosity.

Sorry to throw a stick in the bear trap and leave... After staring at it for 10 pages of repetitive stubbornness, I was curious to see what it'd do when sprung.
 

J_dazzle23

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Dec 4, 2013
Messages
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Sorry to throw a stick in the bear trap and leave... After staring at it for 10 pages of repetitive stubbornness, I was curious to see what it'd do when sprung.
I came in to this thread strictly a fence sitter, and it is nice to see you at least attempt to answer charles' question on the last page (at least that's what I have gotten out of it).

It is still troubling to me that everyone here is avoiding the tough questions he brings up. people may think it is just an arguement to be obtuse, but for those of us that this idea spikes our curiosity, it's not really a good sign when asking about a future plan, most here only turn it around and gripe about the current one.
 

utbagpiper

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Try new bait. Try reading and addressing or refuting some of the many resources provided. Try something.

I'm not really interested in baiting. I'm interested in how your proffered paradigm addresses the fundamentals of your grievances against the current system: How to resolve/arbitrate differences of opinion as to what is a right and who/what is entitled to those rights, when two groups disagree and will not cede nor compromise.

Methinks those upset with the current system would do well to read some Lincoln. Specifically, his second inaugural address where he said, speaking of the Union and the Confederacy:

"Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully."

Most of what you and I and others here view as gross infringements of our rights, large numbers of our fellow countrymen view as necessary protections of their own rights. Obviously, we disagree with them most strongly. We believe with all sincerity and honesty that we are correct and they are wrong. We point to history, logic, our Constitution, and our DoI. Our fellow citizens do likewise.

Changing the form of government, or even eliminating government altogether and trying some form of a "stateless" society, does not remove these deep and dividing differences in our views. If we are to live together in (relative) peace, those differences have to be arbitrated. And as stealthy's answer finally makes clear, anarchy can no more avoid force than can our current system....except perhaps as protection agencies or non-government service providers might cover smaller areas and thus avoid certain national level conflicts....for a time.

Now, if what you really want is to get rid of the feds so you can shoot the first blankety-blank yank/urbanite/democrat/liberal who shows up to take part of your paycheck or to force you to bake a wedding cake contrary to your views; or to shoot the first redneck/republican/conservative crazy who tries to restrict your access to pot or an abortion, I can fully understand the desire. I just don't think we've seen any evidence nor logic to suggest that anarchy can lay a higher moral claim to resolving disputes without force than what our current system does.

In fact, I think a renewed respect for federalism--increased tolerance for diversity of culture and laws among the several States--within our current Constitutional system offers much greater hope for reducing conflict than does anarchy. Physical separation greatly reduces friction. But that is another discussion.

Charles
 

Citizen

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SNIP the tough questions he brings up

Oh, is that what you call it? <rolls eyes>

I call it rationalizations to perpetuate an evil institution. The difference being he frames some of those rationalizations as questions. As though, having seized the initiative by asking a question, others are now obligated to answer the question. Nevermind the gravity, relative importance, or foundation of the question. Just because he or any other frames his rationalizations as questions lends no legitimacy or validity--its just a tactic: turn the premise around and frame it as a question rather than a statement.

Well, I'm glad you consider answers so important. Here's one of mine that statists have dodged for a while. It strikes at the very foundation of his and other statists' arguments, meaning it undercuts the statist rationalizations:

How can anyone legitimately rule another equal without his express individual consent? Perhaps this time we will get some form or other of actual answer.
 

ATM

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Sir, that the air that you're basking in is one of victory, is but a figment of your imagination... I've run out of time, again, to keep engaging in this discussion as fast as others can reply, so perhaps I'll reply again in a few days or so. Perhaps we can hold off our celebrations?

Ahh, but one must celebrate even the imaginary victories of domination via attrition frequently and earnestly, for they are fleeting.

There are far more effective and efficient methods of social persuasion than squaring off with a dedicated attritionist to trade volley after tedious volley.

Sorry to throw a stick in the bear trap and leave... After staring at it for 10 pages of repetitive stubbornness, I was curious to see what it'd do when sprung.

I understand. What was merely suspected had to be witnessed at some point.
 

utbagpiper

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Utah
Sir, that the air that you're basking in is one of victory, is but a figment of your imagination... /QUOTE]

What "victory"?

This isn't a contest and nobody is keeping score. (At least no adults are keeping score.)

The only "victory" is that after 15 pages we finally have an opportunity to move past grand sounding themes into the reality that anarchy can lay no more moral claim to avoiding the use of force to arbitrate differences than can our current system.

If anyone wants to discuss anarchy within the context of just another social order, that would be interesting. Clearly, however, it would be less than accurate to continue to claim that anarchy avoids violent coercion. When two parties and their protection agencies disagree and won't retreat nor compromise, force will be the only resolution.

The only argument at this point is which social order resorts to force less often and which social order does a better job of protecting individual rights, promoting the general welfare, providing for domestic tranquility, and protecting from foreign oppression. In other words, pragmatic questions.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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How can anyone legitimately rule another equal without his express individual consent?

Even ignoring all the potential to question your false claim that "express individual consent" is required for legitimatimacy in governance...

It is completely legitimate to rule a person without his consent when I do so to defend my rights against his aggression.

Simple answer I expect even you agree with.



The hard part is arbitrating what are really my rights and what is really "aggression" on his part. And that is the part you cannot answer within your own paradigm.


Charles
 

Citizen

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Even ignoring all the potential to question your false claim that "express individual consent" is required for legitimatimacy in governance...

It is completely legitimate to rule a person without his consent when I do so to defend my rights against his aggression.

Simple answer I expect even you agree with.



The hard part is arbitrating what are really my rights and what is really "aggression" on his part. And that is the part you cannot answer within your own paradigm.


Charles

This is a dodge. I already addressed this very early in this thread. Others expanded on it. It goes without saying the question refers to peaceful equals. Also, others have already--repeatedly--addressed the question of how to settle questions of what is and isn't aggression.

Also, and more importantly, Utbagpiper's reply amounts to (translation): I think its important to keep existing evil, and that is all I need to make it legitimate. I cannot imagine any other system; therefore the evil system I support and inflict on other equals is legitimate." Which is really just another way of saying, "I am not their equal. I am above them. My ideas (or failure to imagine something better) count more than theirs."
 
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J_dazzle23

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How can anyone legitimately rule another equal without his express individual consent? Perhaps this time we will get some form or other of actual answer.

RULE another is not the same as having RULES to protect the sovereignty and individual rights.

When an individual or group has a perceived or real rights violation by another individual or group, and mediation is not possible, how do you reconcile this?

Maybe you will answer me on this, being here honestly posing the question without begging the question.

This is a real problem that is largely a root of why you guys don't like the CURRENT system, so yeah, it's relevant.
 

stealthyeliminator

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I came in to this thread strictly a fence sitter, and it is nice to see you at least attempt to answer charles' question on the last page (at least that's what I have gotten out of it).

It is still troubling to me that everyone here is avoiding the tough questions he brings up. people may think it is just an arguement to be obtuse, but for those of us that this idea spikes our curiosity, it's not really a good sign when asking about a future plan, most here only turn it around and gripe about the current one.

One of the reasons I've hesitated to answer his questions is that I asserted from the get-go that morality should overrule pragmaticality, but it appeared to me that utbagpiper was unwilling to acknowledge this, much less debate it. It appeared to me that he wanted to strictly force the debate into the realm of practicality or viability, when my principle argument was that practicality was a secondary issue to the primary issue of morality. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, that may have been the proposition that got this whole train rolling in the first place. Only after giving an answer to his viability question in a form apparently acceptable to him has he finally acknowledged this realm of contention and presented a position in it, which is that pragmaticality overrules morality; but we've yet to get into any debate on this topic, since it was stubbornly avoided for the previous 10 pages. There are other reasons, but I've forgotten them.

"Clearly, however, it would be less than accurate to continue to claim that anarchy avoids violent coercion."

This is a straw man, as this has never been the assertion. The assertion is that anarchy does not have violent coercion as a design element, and is therefore, inherently, a moral system. A moral system does not necessarily assure the morality of everyone living in or within the system, it is simply void of immoral characteristics or elements itself. Unless I'm mistaken, this has already been explained in this thread, but perhaps I'm mistaken. The system must be judged according to it's own characteristics.

As has accepted throughout this thread, we live in a fallen world and utopia is not going to be achieved by us mere mortals. We have a choice to embrace or reject immorality. If you choose to embrace it for the comfort it provides you in this temporary physical world, so be it, but do not pretend for a second that your choice is morally justifiable.
 

Citizen

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When you are carrying a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

You did not answer the question I asked further along in the same post. C'mon Mr. I Think Answers Are Important. Lets hear your directly on-point answer. How can you legitimately rule another equal without his express individual consent?

I'm gonna count this as Dodge #1 for you. If you answer the actual question without any dodges, evasions, fallacies, or other underhanded debate tactics I'll set the counter back to zero. Now, what could be fairer than that?
 
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Citizen

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SNIP This is a straw man, as this has never been the assertion. The assertion is that anarchy does not have violent coercion as a design element, and is therefore, inherently, a moral system. A moral system does not necessarily assure the morality of everyone living in or within the system, it is simply void of immoral characteristics or elements itself. Unless I'm mistaken, this has already been explained in this thread, but perhaps I'm mistaken.

It was. You're not.

As I get older, I find myself slowing down. It only now occurs to me that the statist demands for persuasion/criticisms that we're not persuading offer an opportunity for an excellent reply.

Statist: "You're not persuading me!!"

Freedom-minded guy: "I have to persuade you to not support a system that daily violates all manner of rights and has caused untold human misery, death, and economic destruction across history? I have to persuade you to treat equals as equals and obtain their express individual consent to govern them rather than elevate yourself above them or diminish their value as human beings? I have to persuade you to be decent to other human beings by not supporting a destructive institution you cannot, do not control?"
 

J_dazzle23

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You did not answer the question I asked further along in the same post. C'mon Mr. I Think Answers Are Important. Lets hear your directly on-point answer. How can you legitimately rule another equal without his express individual consent?

I'm gonna count this as Dodge #1 for you. If you answer the actual question without any dodges, evasions, fallacies, or other underhanded debate tactics I'll set the counter back to zero. Now, what could be fairer than that?

Indeed I did answer it.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2134883

I'm not going to sit here and say it's ok for someone to be RULED. But what I will say is that there have to be, and will always be rules, social norms, and mores. And with some issues, a line needs to be clearly drawn in the sand, for everyone in this 320 million melting pot to prosper.

There needs to be rules, and when there are rules, someone has to be there to enforce it.

which brings me to my point-

I DON'T think the current system has it on point. I'm with you there. But I don't see how this proposed system will solve that. It just changes the who, not the what. ....and if this is the case, why not work to improve the current system?

Like stealth said, on moral grounds I agree. I'm past that. I'm on to practicality.

How to mitigate confrontation on civil rights issues, or infringements of others rights, if neither party cares to cease-fire, so to speak?
 
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Citizen

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RULE another is not the same as having RULES to protect the sovereignty and individual rights.

When an individual or group has a perceived or real rights violation by another individual or group, and mediation is not possible, how do you reconcile this?

Maybe you will answer me on this, being here honestly posing the question without begging the question.

This is a real problem that is largely a root of why you guys don't like the CURRENT system, so yeah, it's relevant.

This is another dodge. Having rules consented-to by equals is not even close to what the statists support. Massive false premise on your part.

That was Dodge #2.
 

J_dazzle23

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This is another dodge. Having rules consented-to by equals is not even close to what the statists support. Massive false premise on your part.

That was Dodge #2.
Point me to where I said I support people being RULED? I said I supported rule of law, and I supported rules.

strawman me then accuse me of dodging? Nice.

Here, I even said it again for you right here:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2134889
 
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