1000ft. from K-12 School

[Sea_Chicken]

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Gotta get me one of those bags.

 

[AbNo]

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Virginiaplanter wrote:

"Isn't that negatively affecting interstate commerce everytime I order something on the internet?"

The Case cited above quoting Lopez was precisely settled on the grounds that the GFSZA had nothing to do with interstate commerce and therefore was unconstitutional.

"“Section 922(q) is a criminal statute that by its terms has nothing to do with ‘commerce’ or any sort of economic enterprise, however broadly one might define those terms. Section 922(q) is not an essential part of a larger regulation of economic activity, in which the regulatory scheme could be undercut unless the intrastate activity were regulated. It cannot, therefore, be sustained under our cases upholding regulations of activities that arise out of or are connected with a commercial transaction, which viewed in the aggregate, substantially affects interstate commerce.” 514 U.S., at 561."

Huh?

 

[marshaul]

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edit: double post

 

[marshaul]

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Flintlock wrote:

This is not actually the whole truth to the matter. The letter to the Virginia resident from the BATFE suggests that certain exceptions are provided for states or political subdivisions that may not require LEO authorities to verify that the individual is qualified under the law to receive a license.

In my state, a permit process exists but only for the purposes of obtaining reciprocity with 32 other states. To get that permit, there is a training requirement. However, a permit is not required to carry openly or concealed in my state and there is no training requirement, therefore, the police would not need to ask to see a permit in the first place.

In Vermont, there is no permit process at all. I wonder how in these two cases, the law is construed because in our state's off-limits places to carry as listed in Alaska firearms law, the school property itself is mentioned, not the 1000ft part. Additionally, I live about 10ft. from an elementary school and obviously because of private property, I am not violating any laws by possessing firearms in or outside my home.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

 

I'm going to have to disagree with your interpretation. According to the letter from the BATF,

A license qualifies as an exception only if the law of the State or political subdivision requires law enforcement authorities to verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license.

Therefore, there is no exception if there is no requirement for law enforcement authorities to "verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license."

 

[2a4all]

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This (school zone) situation is one of those times that makes carrying (OC or CC) much like walking thru an unfamiliar building. When you turn around to leave, the "wet paint" signs are suddenly visible.

As a CHP holder, if I walk my grandchild to the neighborhood elementary school, I can only accompany him to the boundary of the school property whether I OC or CC, but if I drive him, I can drive onto the school property to drop him off only if I CC.

Without a CHP, it appears I could only walk (or drive?) him to the 1000' perimeter.

 

[curtiswr]

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I live in a block sandwiched between several schools. I will attach an image to illustrate my situation and proximity to schools. They are all private schools, but they were mentioned in one of the laws. So if I walk my dog around the block when OCing, I could be in violation of federal law? When I get my CHP would this still be the case? I am confused by this. So theoretically, every time I leave my apartment, be it to drive somewhere, or just walk my dogs, and am OCing or CCing once I get my license I could be breaking federal law? If that's the case, any route I take would be breaking the law. All the more reason to move at the end of the year, I guess.

 

[curtiswr]

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Double post, sorry. Not sure how that happened.

 

[nova]

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curtiswr wrote:

So if I walk my dog around the block when OCing, I could be in violation of federal law? When I get my CHP would this still be the case?

before you get your CHP, yes. After, no. There is an exception in the federal law for those who have carry permits in states that have a training requirement. VA meets those requirements for the exemption.



However, as discussed briefly between the VCDL president and a few members before the last meeting in Annandale, it appears that the only people who have been charged with violating this law has been people who were arrested and charged with other crimes. In other words, they use the 1000ft law just to tack another charge on to someone already in the crapper for other charges

But I sure don't want to be the test case. Since I'm unable to get a CHP for another two years, I'm just extra careful when driving so that I don't get pulled over while OCing since schools are all over the place and it is impossible to go anywhere without being 1000ft of one.

Hmmm...I wonder if the exemption applies to out of state permits, because I AM able to get non-res Maine and New Hampshire permits at this time since they have a lower age cutoff than VA...hmmm.

 

[curtiswr]

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Hmm okay. Well I'm taking the class this Saturday and will apply immediately after. Until then, since I occasionally take the dogs on brief late night walks I will take a different route that would be safe from the 1000 foot rule.

Thanks for your help.

 

[nova]

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no problem

 

[marshaul]

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nova wrote:

Hmmm...I wonder if the exemption applies to out of state permits, because I AM able to get  non-res Maine and New Hampshire permits at this time since they have a lower age cutoff than VA...hmmm.

Sorry, no such luck.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
firearm--
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to
do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under
law to receive the license;

 

[nova]

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marshaul wrote:

nova wrote:

Hmmm...I wonder if the exemption applies to out of state permits, because I AM able to get non-res Maine and New Hampshire permits at this time since they have a lower age cutoff than VA...hmmm.

Sorry, no such luck.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
firearm--
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to
do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under
law to receive the license;

Thanks for posting the text...I knew I heard that somewhere. Oh well!

 

[asforme]

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marshaul wrote:

nova wrote:

Hmmm...I wonder if the exemption applies to out of state permits, because I AM able to get non-res Maine and New Hampshire permits at this time since they have a lower age cutoff than VA...hmmm.

Sorry, no such luck.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
firearm--
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to
do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under
law to receive the license;

Most importantly is that Maine and NH permits are not honored in VA. But I think that if you had an out of state permit, say from NC I think that may satisfy the law. After all, the state of Virginia licenses anyone with a Concealed carry permit from NC to carry in the state of VA according to VA law (which does not include a 1000 foot radius rule). Even though your permit (the piece of paper) is from another state, you could be considered to be licensed (given official permission) from the sate you are in.

 

[nova]

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asforme wrote:

marshaul wrote:

nova wrote:

Hmmm...I wonder if the exemption applies to out of state permits, because I AM able to get non-res Maine and New Hampshire permits at this time since they have a lower age cutoff than VA...hmmm.

Sorry, no such luck.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
firearm--
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to
do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under
law to receive the license;

Most importantly is that Maine and NH permits are not honored in VA. But I think that if you had an out of state permit, say from NC I think that may satisfy the law. After all, the state of Virginia licenses anyone with a Concealed carry permit from NC to carry in the state of VA according to VA law (which does not include a 1000 foot radius rule). Even though your permit (the piece of paper) is from another state, you could be considered to be licensed (given official permission) from the sate you are in.

That was another thing I forgot about...I knew there had to be a reason I never pursued getting those two permits when I first thought about it earlier this year...:lol:

 

[marshaul]

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asforme wrote:

marshaul wrote:

nova wrote:

Hmmm...I wonder if the exemption applies to out of state permits, because I AM able to get  non-res Maine and New Hampshire permits at this time since they have a lower age cutoff than VA...hmmm.

Sorry, no such luck.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
firearm--
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to
do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under
law to receive the license;

Most importantly is that Maine and NH permits are not honored in VA.  But I think that if you had an out of state permit, say from NC I think that may satisfy the law.  After all, the state of Virginia licenses anyone with a Concealed carry permit from NC to carry in the state of VA according to VA law (which does not include a 1000 foot radius rule).  Even though your permit (the piece of paper) is from another state, you could be considered to be licensed (given official permission) from the sate you are in.

I'm sorry to have to disagree. "Most important" is not that VA doesn't reciprocate with those states -- in fact it's irrelevant. The law in question, which is Federal, doesn't even mention reciprocity, which is a state thing anyway. The exception is "if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located." That's it. Reciprocity has nothing to do with it.

Your suggestion that you "could be considered to be licensed" by having a reciprocity-recognized out of state CHP is frivolous. You can drive in any of the 50 states, but would you really suggest that you have been "licensed by" any state other than Virginia?

The Federal law is unconstitutional anyway. If you want to challenge it, go right ahead, but don't suggest you're in compliance with it when you aren't.

 

[asforme]

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marshaul wrote:

The law in question, which is Federal, doesn't even mention reciprocity, which is a state thing anyway. The exception is "if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located." That's it. Reciprocity has nothing to do with it.

Your suggestion that you "could be considered to be licensed" by having a reciprocity-recognized out of state CHP is frivolous. You can drive in any of the 50 states, but would you really suggest that you have been "licensed by" any state other than Virginia?

The Federal law is unconstitutional anyway. If you want to challenge it, go right ahead, but don't suggest you're in compliance with it when you aren't.

First of all there is no case law on the matter dealing with anyone who has a CHP so the words must be taken at face value. I searched us code and could not find any legal definitions for the word "license" or "licensed".

Webster's:

Main Entry:[sup]1[/sup]li·cense Variant(s)r li·cence ˈlī-s[sup]ə[/sup]n(t)sFunction:noun Etymology:Middle English, from Anglo-French licence, from Latin licentia, from licent-, licens, present participle of licēre to be permittedDate:14th century1 a:permission to act b:freedom of action
2 a:a permission granted by competent authority to engage in a business or occupation or in an activity otherwise unlawful b:a document, plate, or tag evidencing a license granted c:a grant by the holder of a copyright or patent to another of any of the rights embodied in the copyright or patent short of an assignment of all rights
3 a:freedom that allows or is used with irresponsibility b:disregard for standards of personal conduct :licentiousness
4:deviation from fact, form, or rule by an artist or writer for the sake of the effect gained

​

Of the seven available definitions, only one refers to any document. The word license generally means permission. The state of Virginia licenses (give permission) to any person who has a concealed carry permit from North Carolina to carry a concealed weapon in the state of Virginia.

My conclusion is also reinforced by the wording of the state law:

§ 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.
B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony;

The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of the school's curriculum or activities; (ii) a person possessing a knife customarily used for food preparation or service and using it for such purpose; (iii) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of any program sponsored or facilitated by either the school or any organization authorized by the school to conduct its programs either on or off the school premises; (iv) any law-enforcement officer; (v) any person who possesses a knife or blade which he uses customarily in his trade; (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school. For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk.

​

[align=left]Notice it does not say a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit issued by the state of Virginia. With the time they took to define every other possible thing in this law I can't see how the legislature would accidentally leave that out.
[/align][align=left]Exemption P in § 18.2-308:[/align]

[align=left]P. A valid concealed handgun or concealed weapon permit or license issued by another state shall authorize the holder of such permit or license who is at least 21 years of age to carry a concealed handgun in the Commonwealth, provided (i) the issuing authority provides the means for instantaneous verification of the validity of all such permits or licenses issued within that state, accessible 24 hours a day, and (ii) except for the age of the permit or license holder and the type of weapon authorized to be carried, the requirements and qualifications of that state's law are adequate to prevent possession of a permit or license by persons who would be denied a permit in the Commonwealth under this section. The Superintendent of State Police shall (a) in consultation with the Office of the Attorney General determine whether states meet the requirements and qualifications of this section, (b) maintain a registry of such states on the Virginia Criminal Information Network (VCIN), and (c) make the registry available to law-enforcement officers for investigative purposes. The Superintendent of the State Police, in consultation with the Attorney General, may also enter into agreements for reciprocal recognition with any state qualifying for recognition under this subsection.
[/align]​

[align=left]The exemption is modified (mutatis mutandis) by the statement:[/align]

[align=left]while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school.[/align]​

[align=left]
[/align][align=left]I don't see anything in VA law indicating that the exception allowing you to pick up or drop off at a school with a CCW applied to only holders of Virginia CHPs. This would indicate that VA licenses or gives permission to holders of out of state CHPs to pick up and drop off as well.[/align]
So yes, the law is unconstutional and should be challanged, but also due to the wording of the law there is no reason it should be an issue for a CHP holder of a state with repricrosity.

I am not a lawyer, this interpretation of the law is worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

[AbNo]

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Is anyone else lost in this thread?

 

[KBCraig]

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When walking the dog, are you using sidewalks, or walking in the street?

((B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;

 

[nova]

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KBCraig wrote:

When walking the dog, are you using sidewalks, or walking in the street?

((B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;

But aren't the sidewalks and grass strips public property?

 

[marshaul]

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asforme wrote:

First of all there is no case law on the matter dealing with anyone who has a CHP so the words must be taken at face value. I searched us code and could not find any legal definitions for the word "license" or "licensed".

Webster's:
SNIP

Of the seven available definitions, only one refers to any document. The word license generally means permission. The state of Virginia licenses (give permission) to any person who has a concealed carry permit from North Carolina to carry a concealed weapon in the state of Virginia.

My conclusion is also reinforced by the wording of the state law:
SNIP

Notice it does not say a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit issued by the state of Virginia. With the time they took to define every other possible thing in this law I can't see how the legislature would accidentally leave that out.

I'm not sure if the common definition of license applies here. Think about the difference between a "driver's license" (legal use) and "artistic license" (common use).

Furthermore, while the intent of the Virginia legislation is clear, it is not the Federal legislation that happens to be in question. The Virginia code derives much of its language from other Virginia law, and probably does nothing to clarify the differently-worded Federal law, which also happens to have different intent, as a "school grounds" ban rather than a "school zone" ban.

Once again, I think the proper way to approach this law is its inherent unconstitutionality. I don't think you'd get far arguing that a license from one state equals a license issued by any other state.