2011 Open carry legislation

[kylemoul]

hmm maybe so. havnt ready that city law exactly. shouldnt assume.

 

[kylemoul]

if you have a permit under state law you are exempt.

i must be overlooking something?

 

[cshoff]

if you have a permit under state law you are exempt.

i must be overlooking something?

Perhaps the confusion is over your statement, "shrewsbury cannot enforce any conceal carry laws".

That is technically incorrect. They have the authority to enforce any state laws in addition to any valid local ordinances.

 

[kcgunfan]

That is incorrect. As long as their local ordinances conform exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070, then they are completely enforceable. In addition, Shrewsbury Police can also enforce any state law.

I believe you might have a misunderstanding of how our preemption works.

Personally, I'd like to hear your understanding of this. Keep in mind, that I'm a computer scientist, not a lawyer. So, frequently I look at things too literally.

So, section 21.750 says this:

3. Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070, with appropriate penalty provisions, or which regulates the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction, provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243.

I read this as meaning that if you basically have the same laws as the state statutes from 571.010 to 571.070, you can pass any firearm laws you like. And, any locality can write open carry laws. And, any locality can do the same for lethal use or discharge if they comply with 252.243. But, it's the first chunk we're interested in. While chapter 571 sections 010 to 070 cover a lot of group, it does not include 571.107, which is where most of the CC stuff is. So, it would be reasonable to assume, that this gives the locality permission to pass their own CC codes.

But, the thing that makes CC illegal is 571.030.1.(1)

(1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or

But, this is then overridden by 571.030.4

4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.

So, the "get out of jail card" for CC endorsement holders is 571.030.4, and if a locality has the capability to preempt that, it's only by exactly conforming to 571.030 in general, and 571.030.4 specifically. And, if they don't conform with it, they can't preempt it.

Like you said in another thread. These laws are pretty carefully thought out. That's what made me dig on this like I did. If I've made a mistake somewhere, can you let me know where it is?

Thanks

 

[cshoff]

Personally, I'd like to hear your understanding of this. Keep in mind, that I'm a computer scientist, not a lawyer. So, frequently I look at things too literally.

So, section 21.750 says this:


I read this as meaning that if you basically have the same laws as the state statutes from 571.010 to 571.070, you can pass any firearm laws you like. And, any locality can write open carry laws. And, any locality can do the same for lethal use or discharge if they comply with 252.243. But, it's the first chunk we're interested in. While chapter 571 sections 010 to 070 cover a lot of group, it does not include 571.107, which is where most of the CC stuff is. So, it would be reasonable to assume, that this gives the locality permission to pass their own CC codes.

But, the thing that makes CC illegal is 571.030.1.(1)

But, this is then overridden by 571.030.4

So, the "get out of jail card" for CC endorsement holders is 571.030.4, and if a locality has the capability to preempt that, it's only by exactly conforming to 571.030 in general, and 571.030.4 specifically. And, if they don't conform with it, they can't preempt it.

Like you said in another thread. These laws are pretty carefully thought out. That's what made me dig on this like I did. If I've made a mistake somewhere, can you let me know where it is?

Thanks

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking me to explain here. It appears to me that you have a reasonable understanding of the statutes mentioned above.

I'll touch on some of the points here. Under RSMO 21.750, political subdivisions within the state may only make laws regarding firearms, components, ammunition and supplies that conform exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070.

As an example, the City of Shrewsbury would be within their rights to enact an ordinance that said:

"A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:

(1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use"

Since an ordinance written above would be lawful, it would then also be enforceable provided that the penalties and exceptions also conformed exactly with the penalties and exceptions found in RSMO 571.010 - 571.070. In other words, Shrewsbury couldn't NOT exempt CCW permit holders from the example ordinance above because their failure to do so would not conform with the state laws found in 571.010 - 571.070.

So yes, Shrewsbury can make and enforce laws that relate to concealed weapons, but they must conform exactly with state laws as specified above. The beauty in this, of course, is the fact that a person really only needs to be familiar with state laws regarding concealed firearms, rather than having to keep up with the ordinances of every municipality out there. If we could get the same type of preemption for OC.......................well, it would make a lot of us a lot happier.

 

[kylemoul]

I'm a computer scientist, not a lawyer.
Thanks

me too. im actually Borris from Goldeneye
there is a secret state law that allows me to use the golden gun

 

[lancers]

I went ahead and spoke with a few more municipalities Friday and had some interesting responses. I just told them I was a college student doing some research. It was kind of concerning though that a lot of the cities acted so surprised when I ask where I could view a copy of their most recent ordinances. I guess no one reads the law. I know some are posted online, but after an incident where an error on the online version almost cost me a court case in a St. Louis town, I'm very cautious about how accurately they are maintained.

A few places including Brentwood, Sunset Hills, Kirkwood and Glendale all said their codes online were up to date. Kirkwood had a police officer stationed right in the city hall hallway. I guess it was after their shootings, but it was still strange.

The lady at Des Peres was a B***H. She went and got the city manager and they were like, ask the police. I told them they wouldn't help and I just wanted to look at their recent codes. The guy came over and said that the state controls open carry, not the city and their laws were the exact same as the state. Great! Meanwhile the lady was in the background yelling about how it's illegal to bring guns into their building or any building with a sign and you will get arrested. LOL.

A few years ago I emailed the Rock Hill police chief and someone else responded saying the chief said it was illegal. So I went into their little speed trap city hall today and ask the lady to see the ordinance book. She ask about what and I told her. Some other guy sitting down started asking what I wanted to know about weapons. I told him Open Carry and he said it's a state law and "you can't have a gun open within reach of you..." So then the lady brought over the code book and was trying to find the weapons section and the guy kept on and on. You could tell he was an anti. The lady told him 3 times to just sit there, relax, and be quiet- like a little kid! Anyway, there was nothing in their codes to make OC illegal.

Also, the city manager or Maplewood called me back and while he first said it was illegal when I was there, after he reviewed the law, he said we can in fact open carry. I have that recorded on my voice mail which may come in handy.

 

[sohighlyunlikely]

other thread

but after an incident where an error on the online version almost cost me a court case in a St. Louis town, I'm very cautious about how accurately they are maintained.

If they have the codes posted directly though their city website, municode, or Slovene codes. They are responsible for those postings and if you were ever to be arrested for following their posted codes. Then they will have made themselves wide open to a liable law suit. There is supporting case law for this and any lawyer would jump on that case as it is a slam dunk.

I support your efforts to research for yourself all these codes, but if you would like to save yourself some time feel free to reference the list I have made. I have personally read the codes of every city on my list.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?71591-Open-Carry-List-for-St.-Louis-County

If you have any discrepancies or affirmation feel free to post them on this that thread so as to maintain this threads original integrity.

Doc

 

[lancers]

If they have the codes posted directly though their city website, municode, or Slovene codes. They are responsible for those postings and if you were ever to be arrested for following their posted codes. Then they will have made themselves wide open to a liable law suit. There is supporting case law for this and any lawyer would jump on that case as it is a slam dunk.

I support your efforts to research for yourself all these codes, but if you would like to save yourself some time feel free to reference the list I have made. I have personally read the codes of every city on my list.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?71591-Open-Carry-List-for-St.-Louis-County

If you have any discrepancies or affirmation feel free to post them on this that thread so as to maintain this threads original integrity.

Doc

I was wondering that. I always forget to look up the cases about it. It makes complete sense. If the public can't find out what the law is, how can they make sure they don't violate it?


As for Rock Hill, 2 years ago they said this:
" the Chief advised you CAN NOT openly carry a firearm in Rock Hill. He will get back with you sometime next week in reference to this if needed. Thank you"

Well the chief never got back to me.

After reading their ordinance the other day, I responded...
"This is a response from 2 years ago. I never heard anything back from the police chief. Can he please tell me in what part of the city code makes openly carrying a firearm illegal?"

Her response:
"State law. Carry is only concealed. Call St. Louis Co. Prosecutors office if he wants another opinion. Plus its against Rock Hill ordinance."

Me:
"Yesterday, I went to city hall and read the ordinances regarding weapons. I did not see anything that made it illegal. That is why I am trying to find what part of the city code makes it illegal."

Her:
"State law prohibits it."

So she finally admitted their was no ordinance against it, but they think it's against state law. HA. Perfect. I would image open carrying in their speed trap town would be quite an experience. Is the Starbucks still there?

I'm working on getting the St. Louis County Ordinance about having to have written permission from the property owner amended. I am basically going at it like it violates state law and requires people who have a CCW to get written permission- never mentioning open carry.

 

[kylemoul]

even a baby can google "is missouri an open carry state"

they are just lying trying to scare you?