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A question every American should ask themselves.

twoskinsonemanns

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A rhetorical question...What would it take?
[video=youtube_share;pOGFaOAWGiQ]http://youtu.be/pOGFaOAWGiQ[/video]
 

EMNofSeattle

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Well at what point are you?

I suppose it would strongly depend upon what he means by liberty and fight.

Right now, I certainly would, using courts and elections.

At what point would I resist using arms? who knows. It would have to be a stage at which there was no other possible way to restore lost freedoms and the government is so out of hand that our representative republic is effectively transitioned to an oligarchy, And I'm not sure what the looks like yet.
 

Freedom1Man

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Too many chemicals in our water and food supply that help suppress our ability/willingness to resist.

That and the fact that the public fool system helps discourage free thing.
 

twoskinsonemanns

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I found in very insightful when he talked about asking his students (in relationship to the TSA) if there was any point at all, any level of invasion they would not accept.... answer: no
 

09jisaac

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Louisa, Kentucky
At what point would I resist using arms? who knows. It would have to be a stage at which there was no other possible way to restore lost freedoms and the government is so out of hand that our representative republic is effectively transitioned to an oligarchy, And I'm not sure what the looks like yet.

Do you honestly think that we can correct all the wrongs with our current system in our lifetime?

Oligarchy is, if I am not mistaken, a small group of individuals or corporations being in control. Does that description not seem to fit our current government? The masses are mostly preoccupied with other things, such as facebook and reddit.

To get our government back into their bounds we need something drastic. Something to wake the masses into action. I hope what it takes does not take lives and can be reversible and I hope that action is a peaceful one. But I do not know.
 

pfries

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I have already hit my “Tipping Point”;
the manner of fight I will put up is not based on my actions it is based on the action of the bureaucrats and the type of fight they bring to me.
I will go to court if needed, I will work through legislation (which I am currently learning to do).
They have already brought the fight to me and I refuse to escalate it, however I will fight it by the same means they use.
Passive resistance in my opinion is a great thing but only when backed up by action.


There is more I would like to say about a time for subversion but I will step aside at this point.
 
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davidmcbeth

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I found in very insightful when he talked about asking his students (in relationship to the TSA) if there was any point at all, any level of invasion they would not accept.... answer: no

Yea, my minor son said "It's OK dad, I don't care" at the airport. I told him he does not get to decide what is right or wrong about a guy who wants to grope you.

Young people are not too bright ... its one of the reasons why I favor the draft (in addition to costs).. when they put their butts on the line or sweat for our constitution then they'll think twice about the "we don't care" answer.
 

KYGlockster

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Yea, my minor son said "It's OK dad, I don't care" at the airport. I told him he does not get to decide what is right or wrong about a guy who wants to grope you.

Young people are not too bright ... its one of the reasons why I favor the draft (in addition to costs).. when they put their butts on the line or sweat for our constitution then they'll think twice about the "we don't care" answer.

No, because then they will just resent the Constitution you speak of, and the country that it founded.

I have never been to war and I guarantee I know more about the US Constitution, law, civil liberties and rights, etc., than 99% of our soldiers do. We must teach our children about what is truly important, not set around and hope they learn these things on their own.
 
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MamabearCali

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You cannot make someone love their country by forced miliary service, just won't work. Right now and fortune foreseeable future we can fight at the ballot box. When do we fight it outside of that....don't know yet, but I bet it will be self evident when that times comes.

Everything starts at the home. Don't want your kids to accept the TSA bull hockey....teach them that their bodies are their own and nakedness in front of strangers is not desirable or acceptable. Let them know how important it is to you by protecting them and not going to the airport. Find alternative transportation and tell them why. Want your kids to love the constitution teach them about it. You can be sure the schools will not do the same job you will.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Do you honestly think that we can correct all the wrongs with our current system in our lifetime?

Of course not, and some wrongs will simply never be corrected.

Oligarchy is, if I am not mistaken, a small group of individuals or corporations being in control. Does that description not seem to fit our current government? The masses are mostly preoccupied with other things, such as facebook and reddit.

Well not exactly, because by law small groups of individuals do not have total power and corporations are not directly in control, I see us as maybe a functional oligarchy because too few people are involved in political process, but we're not a true oligarchy because everyone who wants to can still get meaningfully involved in politics.

To get our government back into their bounds we need something drastic. Something to wake the masses into action. I hope what it takes does not take lives and can be reversible and I hope that action is a peaceful one. But I do not know.

Maybe something drastic but not violent. Because lets take a hypothetical and say we have a successful revolution and overthrow the government, now what? All the "freedom fighters" will now be looking to take control for themselves, we have few true statesmen like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson et al that I think any violent uprising will be warped by fringe groups who will want to take total power and start their own oligarchy once the current system is out of the way. simply speaking, we need to work with the constitution and system we have, violence is not the answer except as a very last resort, and in modern society, I don't see violent uprisings ever working the way our founding did.

Even the declaration of independence says " Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes"

I really don't believe violence is the way to go, nor do I think an armed revolt will be nessecary, there are always those who will talk a big talk, but I'm a peaceful person at heart.
 

twoskinsonemanns

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WV
Yea, my minor son said "It's OK dad, I don't care" at the airport. I told him he does not get to decide what is right or wrong about a guy who wants to grope you.

Young people are not too bright ... its one of the reasons why I favor the draft (in addition to costs).. when they put their butts on the line or sweat for our constitution then they'll think twice about the "we don't care" answer.

Great job. I'm sure you taught him why in addition to it's not his decision.

Recent my son's school (he's in 5th) decided the only way for children to buy school lunches from now on would be by a finger print system.
I said hell no. I explained to my son that I felt the gov did not have the right to seize his finger print. I told him when he was grown up he could make the decision if he wanted to volunteer his finger print to the gov but I was going to save that choice for him.
They sent home a form. Telling me I had to sign some sort of op-ed out waiver. I wrote a letter back refusing to sign any waiver, stating they need my permission to seize my son's finger print. Not some sort of form I have to fill out to get permission for them to not take it.
I never heard anything about it.
Finger print day came. They told him his dad didn't sign a form so he had to give his finger print to the gov. He said he's not allowed. They said he had no choice. He physically refused to hand over his finger and was sent to the principal's office. The principal called my wife. She told him we will not allow the school to seize his finger print and he would bring his lunch.
Son tells me all about it when he gets home.
Next day I show up demanding to speak with the principal.
We sit down. I make a show of pulling my recorder out and turning it on and putting it back in my pocket. I did this for one reason, I was NOT trying trick him into saying something wrong so I could go above him, I wanted a quick peaceful resolution.
I said I'm so-and-so's father, I want an explanation as to why he felt he was bullied into giving his finger print yesterday.
He gave me the line about the waiver. I told him my stance about that, that he needed my permission, I did not have to get permission for them to not take my son's finger print.
I told him he wasn't getting the finger print. He said okay.
Then I said I want you to make it crystal clear to me that you are going to refuse my son a school lunch unless he gives up his finger print. (Just to be clear this is a lunch I pay for, I've been paying about $60 a school month for the last 5 years for this food with no problems)
He then told me he never meant to imply that, and that it was illegal for them to ever refuse a child a meal regardless of any other circumstances.
He said he can just scan his school badge like he has always done and everything is fine.
4 kids in the entire school did not give over their finger print. 3 signed waivers 1 did not.

Super OT but just wanted to brag about my kid standing up for what I told him was right, I hope he will understand the why of it when he is older.

ETA: I meant I was NOT trying to trick him. I was showing him the recorder on purpose to get a quick resolution, not to get him to say something wrong.
 
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EMNofSeattle

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Great job. I'm sure you taught him why in addition to it's not his decision.

Recent my son's school (he's in 5th) decided the only way for children to buy school lunches from now on would be by a finger print system.
I said hell no. I explained to my son that I felt the gov did not have the right to seize his finger print. I told him when he was grown up he could make the decision if he wanted to volunteer his finger print to the gov but I was going to save that choice for him.
They sent home a form. Telling me I had to sign some sort of op-ed out waiver. I wrote a letter back refusing to sign any waiver, stating they need my permission to seize my son's finger print. Not some sort of form I have to fill out to get permission for them to not take it.
I never heard anything about it.
Finger print day came. They told him his dad didn't sign a form so he had to give his finger print to the gov. He said he's not allowed. They said he had no choice. He physically refused to hand over his finger and was sent to the principal's office. The principal called my wife. She told him we will not allow the school to seize his finger print and he would bring his lunch.
Son tells me all about it when he gets home.
Next day I show up demanding to speak with the principal.
We sit down. I make a show of pulling my recorder out and turning it on and putting it back in my pocket. I did this for one reason, I was trying trick him into saying something wrong so I could go above him, I wanted a quick peaceful resolution.
I said I'm so-and-so's father, I want an explanation as to why he felt he was bullied into giving his finger print yesterday.
He gave me the line about the waiver. I told him my stance about that, that he needed my permission, I did not have to get permission for them to not take my son's finger print.
I told him he wasn't getting the finger print. He said okay.
Then I said I want you to make it crystal clear to me that you are going to refuse my son a school lunch unless he gives up his finger print. (Just to be clear this is a lunch I pay for, I've been paying about $60 a school month for the last 5 years for this food with no problems)
He then told me he never meant to imply that, and that it was illegal for them to ever refuse a child a meal regardless of any other circumstances.
He said he can just scan his school badge like he has always done and everything is fine.
4 kids in the entire school did not give over their finger print. 3 signed waivers 1 did not.

Super OT but just wanted to brag about my kid standing up for what I told him was right, I hope he will understand the why of it when he is older.

Holy cow, a fingerprint for the new obama lunches that don't provide enough calories for athletic children? What's that for, so they can track what he's eating? that's scary, You know in 5th grade I would never have had the guts to stand up to the principal, in High School I stood up for myself three times

1) Someone told me the school's environmental policy forbade me from idling my car engine for the heat while waiting for a friend to get out of class, I told that employee of the school to come back with an RCW saying I couldn't burn my own gasoline to warm the cabin of my own car, she backed off and never bothered me again
2) A teacher told me to remove my "Team Glock" hat that I got with my GSSF membership, I told him no, and he threatened to get a dean of students, I told him to call the dean and he lost interest right there, same teacher also told my brother to remove a similar hat the year after that saying that a glock hat was a "symbol of oppression" my brother complied unfortunatley.
3) An office lady once refused to allow me to leave the campus without parental approval after I had turned 18, I called a dean of students and he allowed me to leave without filling out the form...

Still, That's pretty damn scary, what will they want next? a DNA sample for lunch?
I'm glad your son had the guts to keep saying no to the school, even knowing mommy and daddy are behind him, it's difficult for a kid that age to refuse authority, they're naturally willing to please....
 

twoskinsonemanns

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WV
Holy cow, a fingerprint for the new obama lunches that don't provide enough calories for athletic children? What's that for, so they can track what he's eating? that's scary, You know in 5th grade I would never have had the guts to stand up to the principal, in High School I stood up for myself three times

1) Someone told me the school's environmental policy forbade me from idling my car engine for the heat while waiting for a friend to get out of class, I told that employee of the school to come back with an RCW saying I couldn't burn my own gasoline to warm the cabin of my own car, she backed off and never bothered me again
2) A teacher told me to remove my "Team Glock" hat that I got with my GSSF membership, I told him no, and he threatened to get a dean of students, I told him to call the dean and he lost interest right there, same teacher also told my brother to remove a similar hat the year after that saying that a glock hat was a "symbol of oppression" my brother complied unfortunatley.
3) An office lady once refused to allow me to leave the campus without parental approval after I had turned 18, I called a dean of students and he allowed me to leave without filling out the form...

Still, That's pretty damn scary, what will they want next? a DNA sample for lunch?
I'm glad your son had the guts to keep saying no to the school, even knowing mommy and daddy are behind him, it's difficult for a kid that age to refuse authority, they're naturally willing to please....

Yeah I was shocked to see only 4 parents refused... I mean it's WV.

Good job standing up for yourself in school. It's hard to believe they get away with forcing so much crap. "Symbol of oppression"?! What a crock.
I think most of the time they get away with it because people just allow it since it's easier.


ALSO* I meant I was NOT trying to trick him, quite a typo.
I wanted an honest, quick resolution and to give him the respect of knowing he was on record.
 
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EMNofSeattle

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Yeah I was shocked to see only 4 parents refused... I mean it's WV.

Good job standing up for yourself in school. It's hard to believe they get away with forcing so much crap. "Symbol of oppression"?! What a crock.
I think most of the time they get away with it because people just allow it since it's easier.

yeah, I literally watched the transformation of my school district, my first three years of elementary school for halloween kids would come dressed as cowboys or soldiers and they'd have their little cap guns or sparkling M-16 mockups, and no one cared, after then it became suspendable, my first grade year a kid brought a pocket knife, and the teacher called the kid's mom to pick up the knife, the very year after it was suspensions for first and second graders who brought their little pen knives with them.


by my junior year of high school I had gotten so sick of it that I enrolled in a program called "running start" that allowed me to take most of my classes at a local community college 20 miles away, and I did that instead. So by the time I was resisting in those three instances I was already mostly gone and only taking two classes at that high school anyway. all my other classes I was taking at college and getting dual credit "both high school and college credit from the same college classes" so at that point it was pretty much a moot point most of the time, sure colleges are breeding grounds for people who are on the left-wing of things, but they also have strong protections for freedom of expression.... and treat you like an adult.
 

twoskinsonemanns

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yeah, I literally watched the transformation of my school district, my first three years of elementary school for halloween kids would come dressed as cowboys or soldiers and they'd have their little cap guns or sparkling M-16 mockups, and no one cared, after then it became suspendable, my first grade year a kid brought a pocket knife, and the teacher called the kid's mom to pick up the knife, the very year after it was suspensions for first and second graders who brought their little pen knives with them.


by my junior year of high school I had gotten so sick of it that I enrolled in a program called "running start" that allowed me to take most of my classes at a local community college 20 miles away, and I did that instead. So by the time I was resisting in those three instances I was already mostly gone and only taking two classes at that high school anyway. all my other classes I was taking at college and getting dual credit "both high school and college credit from the same college classes" so at that point it was pretty much a moot point most of the time, sure colleges are breeding grounds for people who are on the left-wing of things, but they also have strong protections for freedom of expression.... and treat you like an adult.

It really is disgusting. When my kid was in kindergarten they were allowed to bring toys for their play time. NO toy guns! it was made very clear.
After a few day we got a call to come pick up my kids toy. It was an action figure that had a non-removable, holstered handgun molded on the figurines' hip.
The gov stooges aren't stupid. Teach a kid to hate guns young, and you won't have to steal them when they are adults.
 

EMNofSeattle

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This may seem off-topic, but I believe it relates.

One of the classes I took at High School and continued to take until my graduation was Naval Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps. Now this is a military program run by military instructors, so you may think that this program is strict and teaches obedience, and to an extent it did, but it also taught leadership and independence. My instructor for that class was a retired naval aviator who believed strongly in constitutional government and the like.

Now see the school district had strict policies and we managed to break just about all of them, I didn't know this at the time, but our program did several things like

>Run a snack shop without school approval, and without adhering to school "student health and nutrician standards" (ie, we sold pop)
>Did community service during evenings and weekends, all while representing the school and with school approval, but with no instructors or chaperones
>Regularily left the class site and campus during class hours to get food or buy items for our events with school money but without approval from the attendance office
>Allowed cadets and family members not approved as drivers by the school district to drive fellow cadets to sporting events and above mentioned community service
>allowed cadets to remain on the class site (we conducted class at a national guard armory three blocks off of the campus proper) even after instructors had gone home in fact for a time the Sergeant First Class in charge of the Armory's security had even given some of us keypad codes so that we could get our drill rifles or class supplies if no instructor was available.
>I organized a team for a charity race to benefit the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society, with my instructors approval and representing myself as a representative of the school for discounted race admission and then took it upon myself to drive all 6 of the competing cadets plus myself in my grandfather's minivan

Now remember at the time I didn't know about all these rules, because our instructor said this was all ok and I never did look into it.

BUT all of those examples I think I'm glad we didn't follow policy. Because we were given independence and the ability to work as students and leaders in this group with minimal instructor input, and I think that is great as far as teaching people to be responsible adults and encourage maturity and the like. I think the way schools run these days is that they want to control students every move (mostly becuase of liability not so much malice) but this has the effect of producing people who are used to following onerous, non-sensical, and burdensome rules, as opposed to what our retired Naval Officer instructor did, which is teach us to be responsible adults who can think and work for themselves and take initiative without having someone always nagging and approving and declining everything you do.

See I think it really does start in public education, and while it's not intentional, at least I don't think most of it is, The result is the same, the public school system conditions people to believe they are always controlled by some authority and are never free to act on their own accord.

At least that's just my $00.02
 
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mwaterous

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They sent home a form. Telling me I had to sign some sort of op-ed out waiver. I wrote a letter back refusing to sign any waiver, stating they need my permission to seize my son's finger print. Not some sort of form I have to fill out to get permission for them to not take it.

Actions such as the above is why I have respect for you, even when I adamantly disagree with you. I'm not certain if I would have had the foresight to think about it like that (who needs permission from who), but I will definitely be trying to look at it that way in the future if a similar situation ever arises. Great example, even better that it didn't take lawyers to figure out who was in the right.
 

davidmcbeth

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I've complained about breathalyzers, unwarranted searches, etc. at school. But SCOTUS has basically given schools the green light for almost anything. Only way to change 'em is to get on the school board and make the changes yourself.
 

davidmcbeth

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Great job. I'm sure you taught him why in addition to it's not his decision.
.

Well, he saw me talk to the TSA agent (right by my side). The TSA said: its our policy. I said: Its my policy to place people under citizen arrest for touching my kid. Lets see whose policy is best.

They did not touch my kid and we went on our way.

But other people think its just fine and dandy.

Tip: the parent should ALWAYS go through a checkpoint first. If the kid goes first, they'll do whatever they want to him and you'll be on the other side unable to assist. If you are past the checkpoint, you can always go back.... (it used to be the reverse before the TSA begun their molestation processes).
 
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