Amelia County is At It Again!

[celticredneck]

When I renewed my CHP in 2013, The county clerk sent my mailed in renewal application back to me saying, "that I had to renew in person and fill out the form for a new background check. My wife is in the process of renewing her permit and called the clerk to ask if the first page of the application was all she needed to mail in. She was informed that they didn't accept mailed applications and she would have to come to the courthouse and fill out the waiver for a new background check. It was my understanding in 2013 and now that the Va legislature passed a law allowing mail in applications for permit renewal. In 2013, I finally got my permit renewed after Grape, and Peter Napp went to Amelia courthouse to discuss it with the clerk, and Peter video taped the discussion. Has the renewal by mail law been changed? I know this an open carry group, but I think it is in the interest of all gun owners to ensure that the various jurisdictions follow the state laws instead of making up their own. Also, does anyone know how to contact the VCDL concerning this?

 

[scouser]

from the 'vcdl' facebook page

His phone number is 804-639-0600 and email president@vcdl.org

 

[Grapeshot]

Sigh - gotta take the clerk behind the woodshed again and have a serious discussion.

 

[skidmark]

print out and place before the clerk:

http://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title18.2/chapter7/section18.2-308.010/

Nowhere does it require the application to be made in person in front of the clerk. Ask them to cite the Code section that they think requires the applicant to submit the application in person.

Be polite.

http://corsinet.com/braincandy/hlife.html

Only if you get stymied by the clerk should you be asking for someone to help you. First because it puts the clerk on notice that mere citizens know the law. Second, it establishes a baseline documenting the obstinacy of the clerk and where their legal interpretation comes from.

stay safe.

 

[scouser]

One thought I've had is that doesn't the application form have to be notarized? You can usually get the clerk to do that for you, and that could be why they're saying you have to appear in person, so they can notarize the form for you.

Of course you can get any other Notary to do it for you, I go to the local branch of my bank for anything I need notarized. Last time I checked my wife's Notary Commission had not expired so she could always notarize for you, but you'd have to travel to Ashland and she is not likely to do it free of charge (strictly speaking it's a conflict of interest if she were to notarize anything for me, that's why I use the bank instead).

Although you don't have to appear in person, sometimes it might be convenient.

I'm not saying they're right to say you have to appear in person, just offering a possible explanation

 

[Grapeshot]

Banks and S & Ls where one has an account will usually notarize, professionally witness, your signature. Do not sign it before hand - sign only in front of the notary.

Also remember to include a copy of your old permit as proof of training.

 

[skidmark]

One thought I've had is that doesn't the application form have to be notarized? You can usually get the clerk to do that for you, and that could be why they're saying you have to appear in person, so they can notarize the form for you.

Of course you can get any other Notary to do it for you, I go to the local branch of my bank for anything I need notarized. Last time I checked my wife's Notary Commission had not expired so she could always notarize for you, but you'd have to travel to Ashland and she is not likely to do it free of charge (strictly speaking it's a conflict of interest if she were to notarize anything for me, that's why I use the bank instead).

Although you don't have to appear in person, sometimes it might be convenient.

I'm not saying they're right to say you have to appear in person, just offering a possible explanation

But you can get your own Notary to attest to your sworn statement made under penalty of perjury, and it has the same power and acceptability as if the clerk swore at you before you signed the form.

The only value I can see in taking the application form in to the clerk is it saves you another trip when you ask that the application be filed in the county records book (where you can prove when you did file in case there is some hanky-panky on the 45-day time limit).

Speaking of which, it might be good practice to go down to the clerk's office and see if a) the order for issuing your permit is filed, and b) testing to see if your BFF can get the clerk to disclose info not allowed to be released.

stay safe.

 

[celticredneck]

print out and place before the clerk:

http://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title18.2/chapter7/section18.2-308.010/

Nowhere does it require the application to be made in person in front of the clerk. Ask them to cite the Code section that they think requires the applicant to submit the application in person.

Be polite.

http://corsinet.com/braincandy/hlife.html

Only if you get stymied by the clerk should you be asking for someone to help you. First because it puts the clerk on notice that mere citizens know the law. Second, it establishes a baseline documenting the obstinacy of the clerk and where their legal interpretation comes from.

stay safe.

Skid, What my wife decided to do was to print off the Va statute and highlight the appropriate section about mail in renewals. She mailed her notarized application along with the highlighted copy to the circuit court. We are waiting to hear back from her before going any further. I have also been in contact with Phil Van Cleeve concerning this matter.

 

[celticredneck]

One thought I've had is that doesn't the application form have to be notarized? You can usually get the clerk to do that for you, and that could be why they're saying you have to appear in person, so they can notarize the form for you.

Of course you can get any other Notary to do it for you, I go to the local branch of my bank for anything I need notarized. Last time I checked my wife's Notary Commission had not expired so she could always notarize for you, but you'd have to travel to Ashland and she is not likely to do it free of charge (strictly speaking it's a conflict of interest if she were to notarize anything for me, that's why I use the bank instead).

Although you don't have to appear in person, sometimes it might be convenient.

I'm not saying they're right to say you have to appear in person, just offering a possible explanation

The clerks reasoning (more than likely Sheriff Ricky Walker's) is that it has been 5 years since my wife's last background check, and that is too long.

 

[builtjeep]

The clerks reasoning (more than likely Sheriff Ricky Walker's) is that it has been 5 years since my wife's last background check, and that is too long.

Fill out the application, have it notarized, enclose the check, mail it certified mail return receipt along with a photocopy of her current CHP. Then wait. Include a printout of the code section highlighted if you wish, but I wouldn't. Then wait to see what they do with it.

 

[grylnsmn]

Banks and S & Ls where one has an account will usually notarize, professionally witness, your signature. Do not sign it before hand - sign only in front of the notary.

Also remember to include a copy of your old permit as proof of training.

You do not need to include a copy of your old permit if it is a renewal. The application specifically says, "ATTACH A PHOTOCOPY OF THE DOCUMENTATION THAT DEMONSTRATES YOUR COMPETENCE WITH A HANDGUN (INITIAL PERMITS ONLY)." (Bold added.)

Section 8M of the application asks if you currently hold a valid permit, and if so it asks for the circuit court that issued it and its expiration date. By law, they are not allowed to require anything beyond what is on the application. By law, proof of competence never expires, and so the mere fact that you hold a previous CHP (which they can look up in court records or in VCIN, using the provided information on the application) is sufficient. When I renewed in Fairfax, I did not provide them anything more than the notarized application and the money order, all by mail, and my renewal went through with no problem.

 

[builtjeep]

Above all, do not call them to ask questions unless you are recording the conversation. Let them refuse the application and mail it back. That way you can PROVE they received it and PROVE that they did not do what is required by law.

 

[Grapeshot]

Originally Posted by Grapeshot
Banks and S & Ls where one has an account will usually notarize, professionally witness, your signature. Do not sign it before hand - sign only in front of the notary.

Also remember to include a copy of your old permit as proof of training.

You do not need to include a copy of your old permit if it is a renewal. The application specifically says, "ATTACH A PHOTOCOPY OF THE DOCUMENTATION THAT DEMONSTRATES YOUR COMPETENCE WITH A HANDGUN (INITIAL PERMITS ONLY)." (Bold added.)

Section 8M of the application asks if you currently hold a valid permit, and if so it asks for the circuit court that issued it and its expiration date. By law, they are not allowed to require anything beyond what is on the application. By law, proof of competence never expires, and so the mere fact that you hold a previous CHP (which they can look up in court records or in VCIN, using the provided information on the application) is sufficient. When I renewed in Fairfax, I did not provide them anything more than the notarized application and the money order, all by mail, and my renewal went through with no problem.

This has been thoroughly vented by several well known gun rights attorneys and all agreed that providing that documentation (old CHP) was very much in order. The old permit could even be 6 years expired.

It should be noted that the VSP form for CHP is a product of that agency's attempt to acquire information permitted by law to facilitate the process. It is not a black letter law form/format

 

[roscoe13]

It should be noted that the VSP form for CHP is a product of that agency's attempt to acquire information permitted by law to facilitate the process. It is not a black letter law form/format

From § 18.2-308.02 :

The application shall be made under oath before a notary or other person qualified to take oaths and shall be made only on a form prescribed by the Department of State Police, in consultation with the Supreme Court, requiring only that information necessary to determine eligibility for the permit. No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this section may be requested or required by the clerk or the court.

Looks to me like the code says the form provided by the state police is the final word on what is required....

Roscoe

 

[grylnsmn]

This has been thoroughly vented by several well known gun rights attorneys and all agreed that providing that documentation (old CHP) was very much in order. The old permit could even be 6 years expired.

It should be noted that the VSP form for CHP is a product of that agency's attempt to acquire information permitted by law to facilitate the process. It is not a black letter law form/format

As cited above by roscoe, 18.2-308.02 requires the form created by the Virginia State Police, and prohibits requiring any information beyond what is listed on that form.

The one gray area I see in there is that if the permit is expired, then you would no longer have a "VALID RESIDENT CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMIT ISSUED BY A VIRGINIA CIRCUIT COURT". At that point, you are making another "initial" application instead of a renewal, and need to provide proof of competence with a handgun as outlined in 18.2-308.02. Proof of having previously held a CHP is considered proof of competence under 18.2-308.02(B)(6): "Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause".

As long as you currently hold a valid resident CHP issued by a Virginia circuit court, a clerk cannot require you to provide a copy of it as part of a renewal.

 

[Grapeshot]

As cited above by roscoe, 18.2-308.02 requires the form created by the Virginia State Police, and prohibits requiring any information beyond what is listed on that form.

The one gray area I see in there is that if the permit is expired, then you would no longer have a "VALID RESIDENT CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMIT ISSUED BY A VIRGINIA CIRCUIT COURT". At that point, you are making another "initial" application instead of a renewal, and need to provide proof of competence with a handgun as outlined in 18.2-308.02. Proof of having previously held a CHP is considered proof of competence under 18.2-308.02(B)(6): "Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause".

As long as you currently hold a valid resident CHP issued by a Virginia circuit court, a clerk cannot require you to provide a copy of it as part of a renewal.

Not so. An expired permit is a "valid" permit - duly and properly issued. Such does not allow legal CC however, until the renewal permit is in hand.

There is a record of testing this somewhere but I did not find the reference.

 

[celticredneck]

Above all, do not call them to ask questions unless you are recording the conversation. Let them refuse the application and mail it back. That way you can PROVE they received it and PROVE that they did not do what is required by law.

Mike, she sent it with a requirement that the clerk sign for it. The only thing she didn't do was send a copy of her current permit.

 

[grylnsmn]

Not so. An expired permit is a "valid" permit - duly and properly issued. Such does not allow legal CC however, until the renewal permit is in hand.

There is a record of testing this somewhere but I did not find the reference.

Do you have a citation for that definition of "valid"?

Once expired, a permit is no longer valid (i.e. recognized for its intended purpose), any more than an expired driver's license is valid for purposes of driving a vehicle on public roads. The expired permit is still proof of competence for purposes of applying for a CHP, but such an application would be handled as a new permit, not a renewal.

 

[Grapeshot]

Do you have a citation for that definition of "valid"?


Once expired, a permit is no longer valid (i.e. recognized for its intended purpose), any more than an expired driver's license is valid for purposes of driving a vehicle on public roads. The expired permit is still proof of competence for purposes of applying for a CHP, but such an application would be handled as a new permit, not a renewal.

When a word or term is not defined by statute, then the dictionary meaning will be utilized. An expired CHP is "valid" because it is "legally binding due to having been executed in compliance with the law" and "legally or officially acceptable".

In Virginia something not expressly forbiden is legal - nothing in our statutes says that a permit must be renewed when it is still active.

Neither an expired DL nor an expired CHP is valid for purpose of being used to engage in the activity legally but it is valid for the purpose of demonstrating competence in the application process. Getting a current DL is a renewal process also - one need only update the required information, not take the physical driving and parking test again.

Personally, I waited too long to submit my renewal application once. By the time it was processed and ready for signature it had expired - was w/o a CHP for several days. It was signed and issued w/o problem. There have been other stories of renewing expired permits over the years - none were asked to submit a new original app.

You may argue semantics and give your opinion all you want, but it still stands that in Virginia acquiring a CHP with using an expired permit as part of the process is accepted w/o question by VSP and the clerks of court. I know of no instance - none - where that created a problem.

 

[grylnsmn]

When a word or term is not defined by statute, then the dictionary meaning will be utilized. An expired CHP is "valid" because it is "legally binding due to having been executed in compliance with the law" and "legally or officially acceptable".

In Virginia something not expressly forbiden is legal - nothing in our statutes says that a permit must be renewed when it is still active.

Neither an expired DL nor an expired CHP is valid for purpose of being used to engage in the activity legally but it is valid for the purpose of demonstrating competence in the application process. Getting a current DL is a renewal process also - one need only update the required information, not take the physical driving and parking test again.

Grape, you are missing my point completely. Having previously held a CHP issued in Virginia is expressly defined in law as proof of competence in 18.2-308.02(B)(6). If your permit is expired, then you are submitting a new initial application instead of a renewal, but the previous CHP counts as proof of competence instead of having to present some other proof of training.

As user has pointed out many times, words are not superfluous in law or legal documents. Each word is expected to add meaning. To use your definition for "valid" would make that word superfluous in the question on the application. The circuit courts don't issue invalid permits, so asking if you have a valid permit issued by a circuit court in Virginia, instead of asking if you have a permit issued by a circuit court in Virginia, must have a distinct meaning. "Valid" as being "executed in compliance with the law" doesn't provide that. "Legally or officially acceptable" only fits that if the permit is unexpired.

In short, if your permit is currently unexpired, there is no requirement in law that you submit a copy of your current permit as part of the renewal process, as per the VSP application, and a circuit court cannot require you to provide it. You can only be required to submit a copy if your previous permit is expired, at which point the copy of the permit fulfills the requirement for demonstration of competence in 18.2-308.02(B).