Amtrak

[CitizenJohn]

Facts:

1. The 111th Congress passed Public Law 111-117, in which Amtrak was required to allow certain firearms and certain ammunition in checked baggage under certain circumstances.
2. Amtrak implemented the law in 2010.
3. Prior to this law, Amtrak had a corporate [policy - ?] that did not allow firearms or ammunition in checked baggage or carry-on baggage.
3. Current as of today (10-1-13) the Amtrak website:
a. states the procedures for checking firearms and ammunition in checked baggage
b. prohibits firearms and ammunition in carry-on baggage (no law reference listed)
c. is silent as to the “lawfulness” of having firearms or ammunition in carry-on baggage
d. is silent as to the concealed carry of firearms (except in carry on baggage).

Question:

While it “seems to be” common knowledge that it is unlawful to have a firearm on the Amtrak train in either carry-on baggage or OC/CC, does anybody know of a United States Code (USC), Coded Federal Regulation (CFR), or Public Law that in fact, states such? I asked one of the web publishers of handgunlaw.us and even though they list Amtrak as a place where carry is not legal even with a Concealed Carry Permit/License, he admitted that he had never been able to find any federal law reference to it.

Thanks.

 

[davidmcbeth]

Yea, they can't have an accidental discharge as the train derails and goes tumbling down the mountainside.

 

[Logan 5]

That's understandable. The accidental discharge might hurt someone.

 

[DrTodd]

18 U.S.C. § 922 : US Code - Section 922:

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922#sthash.rbdOW6NR.dpuf

 

[skidmark]

Dr. Todd - that's basically the law that says you cannot stuff your firearm in your suitcase and check it throughunless you tell the ticket agent and go through the whole TSA inspection rigamarole. As I understand it, the absence of TSA agents at bus terminals is why you cannot have a firearm in your luggage when travelling by bus. (Which, by the way, is a good thing -let's not try to get TSA at bus terminals as well as airports.

AMTRAK is a quasi-federal agency. Essentially that means the private corporation that is AMTRAK has been granted a monopoly on passenger rail service. There is no need for United States Code (USC), Coded(sic) Federal Regulation (CFR), or Public Law when they can have a corporate policy against firearms in carry-on luggage and against on-body carry by passengers.

The AMTRAK procedure for checking luggage containing a firearm is just about as intrusive as what you have to go through at an airport - except if you read their policy you have to notify them in advance that you will be checking luggage that contains a firearm. http://www.amtrak.com/firearms-in-checked-baggage

stay safe.

 

[solus]

thanks for the informative narrative...i have thought about using this mode of xportation on my next trip to WA state and wondered what the hoops getting my firearms there as well.

ipse

 

[DrTodd]

Dr. Todd - that's basically the law that says you cannot stuff your firearm in your suitcase and check it throughunless you tell the ticket agent and go through the whole TSA inspection rigamarole. As I understand it, the absence of TSA agents at bus terminals is why you cannot have a firearm in your luggage when travelling by bus. (Which, by the way, is a good thing -let's not try to get TSA at bus terminals as well as airports.

AMTRAK is a quasi-federal agency. Essentially that means the private corporation that is AMTRAK has been granted a monopoly on passenger rail service. There is no need for United States Code (USC), Coded(sic) Federal Regulation (CFR), or Public Law when they can have a corporate policy against firearms in carry-on luggage and against on-body carry by passengers.

The AMTRAK procedure for checking luggage containing a firearm is just about as intrusive as what you have to go through at an airport - except if you read their policy you have to notify them in advance that you will be checking luggage that contains a firearm. http://www.amtrak.com/firearms-in-checked-baggage

stay safe.

Actually, the law as cited DOES apply. Although you are correct that the section of US Code I cited covers airlines, and that AMTRAK has rules that are in addition to the law, this section of US Code covers all common carriers... Amtrak included. The code says that, as a passenger, you must inform specific individuals representing the common carrier that you are transporting a firearm and they will take possession of it while you travel. AMTRAK assumed the common carrier obligations of a number of local railroads when it was established. See
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpque...&refer=&r_n=sr157.112&item=&&&sel=TOC_250674&

THE NATIONAL RAILROAD PASSENGER CORPORATION (AMTRAK)
The National Railroad Passenger Corporation (Amtrak) operates intercity passenger rail services in 46 States and the District of Columbia, in addition to serving as a contractor in various capacities for several commuter rail agencies. Congress created Amtrak in the Rail Passenger Service Act of 1970 (Public Law 91-518) in response to private carriers' inability to profitably operate intercity passenger rail service. Thereafter, Amtrak assumed the common carrier obligations of the private railroads in exchange for the right to priority...

 

[skidmark]

Going back to the OP's question:

Question:

While it “seems to be” common knowledge that it is unlawful to have a firearm on the Amtrak train in either carry-on baggage or OC/CC, does anybody know of a United States Code (USC), Coded Federal Regulation (CFR), or Public Law that in fact, states such?

The law you cited allows for a passenger to transport via common carrier. That's the reverse of the answer to the OP's question.

And yet it took additional special legislation to get AMTRAK to allow carry in checked baggage - for which they wrote special rules that go way beyond the regulations you cited (primarily the 24-hour advance notice and checked-baggage service at every stop on the traveller's itinerary).

stay safe.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Didn't Mike have a thread at one time showing it wasn't illegal to carry on AMTRAK?

 

[DrTodd]

Going back to the OP's question:



The law you cited allows for a passenger to transport via common carrier. That's the reverse of the answer to the OP's question.

And yet it took additional special legislation to get AMTRAK to allow carry in checked baggage - for which they wrote special rules that go way beyond the regulations you cited (primarily the 24-hour advance notice and checked-baggage service at every stop on the traveller's itinerary).

stay safe.

The special legislation to which you and others refer was in regards to AMTRAK's rules, not the US code. I was specifically addressing the question of what prohibits OC/CC while a passenger on AMTRAK. It is true that, at least according to the code, a specific provision was made for transport of a firearm on a common carrier. AMTRAK's own rules stopped the implementation of the procedure outlined in the code. However, the "special legislation" only changed the rules for those AMTRAK segments with the facilities to check in the baggage. The change did not go far enough. I live near Grand Rapids, Michigan and still am unable to transport my firearm on the AMTRAK train to Chicago and beyond because AMTRAK doesn't have luggage "check in" on this route. The Congress should have either removed the prohibition from the US Code or, alternatively, provided a procedure by which one could follow the exception as outlined.
BTW, this also affects us Michiganders and visitors by prohibiting firearms from being transported by the many ferries to Isle Royal in Lake Superior; they are all considered "common carriers". Though, as I understand it, a person IS permitted to transport a pistol by private craft.

 

[MAC702]

...AMTRAK is a quasi-federal agency. Essentially that means the private corporation that is AMTRAK has been granted a monopoly on passenger rail service. There is no need for United States Code (USC), Coded(sic) Federal Regulation (CFR), or Public Law when they can have a corporate policy against firearms in carry-on luggage and against on-body carry by passengers.
...

So what is the penalty for concealing against their corporate policy?

Or is that the only time the "federal" comes into play, so they can jail you?

 

[Mike]

Didn't Mike have a thread at one time showing it wasn't illegal to carry on AMTRAK?

Yeah, I posted on this before - I am not aware of any federal statute banning carrying guns on AMTRAK though there may be a few states that ban train carry.

Sure, if found out, they could stop the train and tell you to get off.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Yeah, I posted on this before - I am not aware of any federal statute banning carrying guns on AMTRAK though there may be a few states that ban train carry.

Sure, if found out, they could stop the train and tell you to get off.

Thank you, I thought so, my state has no such laws if I recall. So that leaves it to the company policy. Here we can on buses and Ferries etc, as long as we have our CPL.

 

[CitizenJohn]

Yeah, I posted on this before - I am not aware of any federal statute banning carrying guns on AMTRAK though there may be a few states that ban train carry.

Sure, if found out, they could stop the train and tell you to get off.

So, you are saying that as far as you know, a person OC/CC is not breaking a federal law, they would just be in violation of Amtrak policy? If so, as you say, that would only subject a person OC/CC to being expelled from the train, unless Amtrak had "no firearms onboard" signage and you were in a state like Oregon that makes such action a trespass (misdemeanor) issue. Washington State does not have such a trespass statute. I have looked around the Amtrak station in Vancouver, Washington and they didn't have "no firearms" signage of any kind, including the train entrance door.

Basically, my law question concerns intrastate passage on Amtrak. Interstate OC/CC might be a federal issue but it is not Amtrack specific:

Ref: USC Title 18 > Part 1 > Chapter 44 > § 926A - Interstate Transportation Of Firearms:
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

Section 926A seems to infer that if you are on Amtrack and pass over the border of a state, a firearm would have to be stowed in checked baggage and the only way to do that would be to comply with Amtrack procedures. Still, there is nothing in the law that seems to prohibit OC/CC. Trying to OC would get you kicked off the train for sure but getting caught OC/CC ... I'm just not convinced that a person could get charged with a federal crime either way unless the train crossed over a state border.

Comments?

 

[CitizenJohn]

18 U.S.C. § 922 : US Code - Section 922:

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922#sthash.rbdOW6NR.dpuf

To me, this reference doesn't seem to apply to personal OC/CC issues. It deals with interstate or foreign commerce delivery to persons other than licensed importers, etc.

I'm just sayin'.

 

[Tucker6900]

Travel Amrtrak almost monthly...

For those interested I AM NOT A LAWYER!

I have traveled Amtrak 14 times in the last year and a half. The first three times, I may or may not have had a firearm in my suitcase. The remaining 11 times, I made the decision to ask. I was told, by my local train station supervisor, that a checked, locked, registered(with Amtrak) firearm was allowed...as far as he was aware.

In those remaining trips, my carry weapon was safely stowed in a lockbox, in my suitcase(which was also locked), in the "checked" baggage area of the train. The Amtrak Website says no. My engineer, whom I have met and for some reason decides hes the one to check tickets before boarding is very nice. And has been very reasonable in the matter. I have mentioned the site rules to him and he has given me the "Dont worry about it, Ill handle it look" many times.

And FYI, of the 10 different station I have entered, not a single one has had ANY kind of pre or post inspections.

Take this advice as that and that only. This is not legal advice. Dont yell at me if you get into trouble.

 

[DrTodd]

To me, this reference doesn't seem to apply to personal OC/CC issues. It deals with interstate or foreign commerce delivery to persons other than licensed importers, etc.

I'm just sayin'.

I was referring to this part:

any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter.

But, if others don't think it applies, perhaps it doesn't. The OP brought up "Intrastate" as opposed to "Interstate" which MAY change things , I guess one could ask.... or just wait until a court case arises due to this:

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/video?id=8719613

 

[johnfenter]

Interstate vs. Intrastate

The OP brought up "Intrastate" as opposed to "Interstate" which MAY change things , I guess one could ask.... or just wait until a court case arises due to this:

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/video?id=8719613[/QUOTE]

I suspect the prosecuting point would be that the law refers to the interstate commerce of the CARRIER, not the intrastate travel of the passenger. YOU may not be involved in interstate commerce by traveling intrastate; but THEY are.

 

[skidmark]

The OP brought up "Intrastate" as opposed to "Interstate" which MAY change things , I guess one could ask.... or just wait until a court case arises due to this:

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/video?id=8719613

I suspect the prosecuting point would be that the law refers to the interstate commerce of the CARRIER, not the intrastate travel of the passenger. YOU may not be involved in interstate commerce by traveling intrastate; but THEY are.[/QUOTE]

Where/when did the OP make that distinction?

But, as you point out, the distinction is a red herring.

stay safe.

 

[CitizenJohn]

I was referring to this part:

any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter.

But, if others don't think it applies, perhaps it doesn't. The OP brought up "Intrastate" as opposed to "Interstate" which MAY change things , I guess one could ask.... or just wait until a court case arises due to this:

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/video?id=8719613

OK, if we conclude that this USC addresses personal OC/CC by a passenger, without a CFR, the USC is not enforceable (as I understand the relationship between USC and CFR).