Army Soldiers carrying concealed firearms

[MagiK_SacK]

Actually, that's an excellent analogy. Many people have signed away some rights for their employer even if only for a specified period of time. I really don't want this to turn into another argument about words.

I was in the military. While in, there were certain things I was not allowed to do! I signed up for that. I didn't think someone would have an issue with my phrasing, so perhaps that is the only issue?

I can agree with that.

 

[MAC702]

For example, while in the military, I did not have the right to freely speak out criticisms against those in the military chain of command. I personally know some who were disciplined for doing so when a certain pot-smoking draft-dodger became our CinC.

There may be a difference between what officers and what enlisted men can get away with. I don't know. I wasn't enlisted, nor was I in a job where I had to discipline any.

While I now have the right to tell everyone to F-off and take off for Florida for a month because I need a break, I did not have that right when the military gave me my daily orders.

The point is that those in the military really do have to live according to the rules set by their superiors. We signed up (contractual agreement) to do so.

I hadn't meant to imply anything severely lessening our status as citizens, so I apologize if it came out that way.

 

[MagiK_SacK]

For example, while in the military, I did not have the right to freely speak out criticisms against those in the military chain of command. I personally know some who were disciplined for doing so when a certain pot-smoking draft-dodger became our CinC.

There may be a difference between what officers and what enlisted men can get away with. I don't know. I wasn't enlisted, nor was I in a job where I had to discipline any.

While I now have the right to tell everyone to F-off and take off for Florida for a month because I need a break, I did not have that right when the military gave me my daily orders.

The point is that those in the military really do have to live according to the rules set by their superiors. We signed up (contractual agreement) to do so.

I hadn't meant to imply anything severely lessening our status as citizens, so I apologize if it came out that way.

In all fairness I can do tell anyone in my COC to F-off I just have to be willing to accept the consequences. That's just arguing semantics though lol.

I don't think you need to apologize though, no hard feelings here.

 

[Red Dawg]

Along the lines of the OP, are most base commanders saying no to offbase/off duty CC/OC? Curious....I know of many military that do it from various posts around the US...Obviously, we have Active Duty dudes on here...

 

[MagiK_SacK]

Along the lines of the OP, are most base commanders saying no to offbase/off duty CC/OC? Curious....I know of many military that do it from various posts around the US...Obviously, we have Active Duty dudes on here...

I can't speak for the army, but the navy has no such policy. A NAVADMIN was released in 2010 basically enforcing our right to own/carry firearms.

http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/reference/messages/Documents/NAVADMINS/NAV2010/NAV10196.txt

 

[MAC702]

... A NAVADMIN was released in 2010 basically enforcing our right to own/carry firearms.

http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/reference/messages/Documents/NAVADMINS/NAV2010/NAV10196.txt

I just read it. How does it enforce a right to own/carry firearms? Because it was pretty strict about its conditions for having access to your firearm. How officially bad was it before this?

 

[MagiK_SacK]

I just read it. How does it enforce a right to own/carry firearms? Because it was pretty strict about its conditions for having access to your firearm. How officially bad was it before this?

Those restrictions are for people living on base or in off base military housing. They do not apply to members living in anywhere else.

I am not positive on the policies before the NAVADMIN was released but if I understand things correctly it was next to impossible to be able to store your gun on base if you lived on base.

 

[davidmcbeth]

In all fairness I can do tell anyone in my COC to F-off I just have to be willing to accept the consequences. That's just arguing semantics though lol.

I don't think you need to apologize though, no hard feelings here.

Soldiers are "meat Popsicles" .... I could not carry when I was in the service ...

 

[DamonK]

For example, while in the military, I did not have the right to freely speak out criticisms against those in the military chain of command. I personally know some who were disciplined for doing so when a certain pot-smoking draft-dodger became our CinC.

There may be a difference between what officers and what enlisted men can get away with. I don't know. I wasn't enlisted, nor was I in a job where I had to discipline any.

While I now have the right to tell everyone to F-off and take off for Florida for a month because I need a break, I did not have that right when the military gave me my daily orders.

The point is that those in the military really do have to live according to the rules set by their superiors. We signed up (contractual agreement) to do so.

I hadn't meant to imply anything severely lessening our status as citizens, so I apologize if it came out that way.

Dammit, I hate that I have to agree with you on something! :banghead: But yeah, when you enlist you do sign away many of your rights. You belong to the Military. Unfortunately the young service members these days don't really understand that among many things. There is more to the enlistment paperwork than just you oath of enlistment. You sign a contract to. Hope you read it fellers and fellerettes!

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

 

[MagiK_SacK]

Dammit, I hate that I have to agree with you on something! :banghead: But yeah, when you enlist you do sign away many of your rights. You belong to the Military. Unfortunately the young service members these days don't really understand that among many things. There is more to the enlistment paperwork than just you oath of enlistment. You sign a contract to. Hope you read it fellers and fellerettes!

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

Are you currently in the service?

 

[MagiK_SacK]

Soldiers are "meat Popsicles" .... I could not carry when I was in the service ...

I'm sorry that was the case when you were in. Thankfully things have changed since then.

 

[skidmark]

Before this, local/area military commanders could enforce a "no carry" order on military when they were off base/off duty.

Also, most military posts had rules against personnel in barracks from possessing firearms in those barracks. That was sometimes relaxed for officers (often depending on rank) who lived in BOQ as opposed to base [family] housing.

Personally I am highly and adamantly opposed to military going around carrying their assigned arms while off base* - unless there is a federally declared war of the navy/Air Force has been called to do some of the few things generally not prohibited by Posse Commitatus. (No, the Army gets no exemptions whatsoever. Go look it up!) I have no problem with an individual, who happens to be paid for performing military service, carrying their own personal firearm for self defense purposes when off base/off duty.

stay safe.

* - military carrying assigned arms off base are not off duty. They are performing some duty some place other than "on base". With darned few exceptions thay are not allowed to do that.

 

[MagiK_SacK]

Personally I am highly and adamantly opposed to military going around carrying their assigned arms while off base* - unless there is a federally declared war of the navy/Air Force has been called to do some of the few things generally not prohibited by Posse Commitatus. (No, the Army gets no exemptions whatsoever. Go look it up!)

Agreed, the only time I could see that as permissible would be when traveling from base to base while on duty, or escorting prisoners and duties related to such. Beyond we in the military are not police and should not act a such.

 

[DamonK]

Are you currently in the service?

Medically retired after 13 years last month.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

 

[MagiK_SacK]

Medically retired after 13 years last month.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

Well I can't speak for the Army, but I can imagine the policies can't be too far off. You should know we didn't sign any rights away.

I still have my first amendment right, I can protest and speak out against something all day. I just can't associate the military or bring discredit upon the military while doing so. Again same as a civilian. Go on the news and speak out against your employer, the reaction will be the same.

I explained the second amendment earlier.

Kind of covered the fourth amendment. So long as I'm not on base they can't just come to my house and search the place.

As for the fifth amendment there was sort of a recent clarification to this within the past few years. I do not have to incriminate myself. If I am being faced with NJP I can decline and request a court martial. This kind of ties in the sixth amendment as well. An NJP is nothing more than an admission of guilt. If I don't want to admit to guilt and take my chances in a court I can. This whole thing has gone so far that lets say I go out, drink too much, and get a DUI. My command will be informed of my arrest and suspicion of guilt. It used to be that you were taken straight to mast(NJP). Ever since a few years ago that has stopped. Now COs cannot take you to mast without a guilty conviction in a civilian court.

So the ones that are rather important, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, & 6th, in my eyes and legally (as far as I can tell) have not been signed away.

 

[DamonK]

Well I can't speak for the Army, but I can imagine the policies can't be too far off. You should know we didn't sign any rights away.

I still have my first amendment right, I can protest and speak out against something all day. I just can't associate the military or bring discredit upon the military while doing so. Again same as a civilian. Go on the news and speak out against your employer, the reaction will be the same.

I explained the second amendment earlier.

Kind of covered the fourth amendment. So long as I'm not on base they can't just come to my house and search the place.

As for the fifth amendment there was sort of a recent clarification to this within the past few years. I do not have to incriminate myself. If I am being faced with NJP I can decline and request a court martial. This kind of ties in the sixth amendment as well. An NJP is nothing more than an admission of guilt. If I don't want to admit to guilt and take my chances in a court I can. This whole thing has gone so far that lets say I go out, drink too much, and get a DUI. My command will be informed of my arrest and suspicion of guilt. It used to be that you were taken straight to mast(NJP). Ever since a few years ago that has stopped. Now COs cannot take you to mast without a guilty conviction in a civilian court.

So the ones that are rather important, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, & 6th, in my eyes and legally (as far as I can tell) have not been signed away.

That's nice, read the whole contract.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

 

[MagiK_SacK]

That's nice, read the whole contract.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

I just did, now show me in what section it says I signed my rights away please.

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/infomgt/forms/eforms/dd0004.pdf

 

[DamonK]

I just did, now show me in what section it says I signed my rights away please.

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/infomgt/forms/eforms/dd0004.pdf

Try reading the second page... the first couple paragraphs are left vague for a reason. What part of no longer a citizen do you not understand?

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

 

[MagiK_SacK]

Try reading the second page... the first couple paragraphs are left vague for a reason. What part of no longer a citizen do you not understand?

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

I understand it perfectly well. It says I am now a member if the US Armed Forces and I am to be held to a higher standard. Where I think you, and most people, get the idea we sign away our rights is the fact that we are also subject to being governed by the UCMJ. In the UCMJ, as you know, is article 93 which is a "catch all" article up for wide interpretation. That particular article causes a lot of confusion. I assure you being a member of the military is no different than being employed by a private employer. Your actions in both have the potential to effect your career adversely. Speak out against your boss and you can expect some sort of discipline. Like I said before chances are most employers don't let you carry your firearm. Most employment paperwork most likely have something in it allowing your employer to search your belongings as they see fit. The list of similarities could go on and on. My enlistment contract does not expressively limit/restrict my rights. It merely holds me to a higher standard. So if its not in the contract where is it? I promise you that you won't find it. One thing my job has thought me as an Aviation Mechanic is attention to detail in both reading the publication that tell me how to do a job and actually doing the job. This translates very well in doing research on subjects like this. This is one that I have researched and have yet to turn anything up. So until I can find where is states that my rights are "signed" away, or somebody else does I will continue on enjoying my rights.

 

[DamonK]

I understand it perfectly well. It says I am now a member if the US Armed Forces and I am to be held to a higher standard. Where I think you, and most people, get the idea we sign away our rights is the fact that we are also subject to being governed by the UCMJ. In the UCMJ, as you know, is article 93 which is a "catch all" article up for wide interpretation. That particular article causes a lot of confusion. I assure you being a member of the military is no different than being employed by a private employer. Your actions in both have the potential to effect your career adversely. Speak out against your boss and you can expect some sort of discipline. Like I said before chances are most employers don't let you carry your firearm. Most employment paperwork most likely have something in it allowing your employer to search your belongings as they see fit. The list of similarities could go on and on. My enlistment contract does not expressively limit/restrict my rights. It merely holds me to a higher standard. So if its not in the contract where is it? I promise you that you won't find it. One thing my job has thought me as an Aviation Mechanic is attention to detail in both reading the publication that tell me how to do a job and actually doing the job. This translates very well in doing research on subjects like this. This is one that I have researched and have yet to turn anything up. So until I can find where is states that my rights are "signed" away, or somebody else does I will continue on enjoying my rights.

Actually, it specifically says that you don't have the same rights as you would with civilian employment. For someone who is suppose to pay attention to detail, you seem to only read and understand what you want to. Just because you don't want something to be true doesn't make it so.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2