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Carrying while defending a Confederate monument a no-no.

countryclubjoe

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Interesting, so government agents, are entitled to the right to keep and bear arms, but law-abiding armed citizens cannot..

More to come on the subject.

Regards
CCJ
 

countryclubjoe

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Country Club Liberal Joe conflates power and right. Governments and their agents arrogate power.
Yes they do arrogate their power, hence, my post..

arrogate-- Take or claim (something)without justification..

My .02
CCJ
 
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countryclubjoe

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So the monument is coming down, while I applaud the open carriers, I do support the removal of all confederate memorabilia from any and all government building's... No one need remember who finished second.. They should replace the statue with a statue of William Lloyd Garrison, in my humble opinion.

Regards
CCJ
 

utbagpiper

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So the monument is coming down, while I applaud the open carriers, I do support the removal of all confederate memorabilia from any and all government building's... No one need remember who finished second.. They should replace the statue with a statue of William Lloyd Garrison, in my humble opinion.
The ugly realities of African slavery in this nation cannot be defended....except perhaps as not quite so bad as some might presume when compared to Northern industrial treatment of blacks. (Read carefully. Slavery was worse than northern treatment. But northern treatment was bad enough to make slavery not look as bad as it is.)

Nor can objective, informed persons deny the very real role that slavery played in the War Between the States on both sides. It is most unfortunate, however, that gov/union schools have erroneously (perhaps even maliciously) elevated slavery from an undercurrent to primacy on the Confederate side.

It is time to carefully evaluate which Confederate monuments are appropriate memorials to valor and honor in defense of home and hearth, vs which glorify slavery or create a legitimate affront to reasonable sensibilities of Southern residents. What Yanks, the Hollyweird types, the NYC-based media, Ivy-League snowflakes, or even I think of such monuments and memorials should be entirely irrelevant.

Advocating for the eradication of history and culture is a very dangerous thing. Not only might it start the kind of culture war that involves more than just words, but it is a terrible precedence to set.

Do we remove Washington and Jefferson from Mt. Rushmore because they owned slaves? Does Lincoln come down because his words, while progressive for his day, can easily be made to sound horribly racist and bigoted to our modern ears? Will Teddy Roosevelt have to come down for war mongering and his love of blood sport (ie hunting)?

Should we erase the Rev MLK from history because of the hypocrisy of a "man of God" also had adulterous affairs? Will some future generation demand the removal of Rosa Parks memorials if we discover she engaged in some unforgivable conduct during her life?

There are certainly aspects of southern culture I find personally offensive. I find New England even more offensive and have enjoyed watching the reaction of the sanctimonious (white) Northerners and their NYC media to Michael Che's comment about Boston being "the most racist city" he had ever visited. But it would be a tremendous loss to the national history and character to erase the history and culture of any of these regions.

Reducing the complexities of the War Between the States to a couple of one-dimensional caricatures--white knight of the North battling the evil southern bigots and slave owners--is unbecoming an educated America. But exactly what one might expect from the current state of information and indoctrination.

If nothing else, some monuments to now controversial figures forces us to remember and confront the controversy. If Missouri wants a memorial to Governor Lilburn Boggs I won't be paying homage. But neither will I demand it come down, nor complain when that memorial prompts greater remembrance of the "Extermination Order" he issued against my ancestors.

The current assault on Southern culture and remembrance of their war heroes cannot end well. Even if it does not erupt into something terrible in the short term, such historic cleansing will be bad for the nation in the long run.

Charles
 
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solus

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the concept of wanting to change historical event(s) to present a better image is not limited to those 'carefully' rewriting their perception of events that occurred 150+/- years ago, is it?

details of the massacre has been reiterated by those in the know as occurring in different locations with different versions, etc.; as has the Armenian genocide, and other things that may or may not have occurred this way or that.

but the bottom line, who, in your humble opinion, defines the 'careful' rewriting of this county's history ~ one hopes it is done like the Republic of South Africa did when F.W & Nelson set up the Truth and Reconciliation Commission under the auspices of Archbishop Tutu.

ipse
 

deepdiver

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I appreciate your thoughtful comments on this. I have been mulling over many of the matters you touched.

I'm still forming my thoughts on this issue. I agree about the dangers you mention, especially the "where does it end" question. I have an empathy for some of those honestly offended by them. But in some ways, this issue is bit like proposed gun restrictions, even those that may seem to be not entirely unreasonable at first blush (the "shall not be infringed" not withstanding for the purposes of the comparison). There is good reason to distrust the "end game" and the slope is looking pretty slippery when one looks beyond the current acts and rather to the rhetoric of leaders. That is an even more apt comparison when considers that there is little daylight between the leaders/supporters of this movement and the leaders/supporters of the anti-2A types.
 

HeroHog

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If you are ever in New Orleans you need to be aware of this:
https://www.municode.com/…/new_or…/codes/code_of_ordinances…
Sec. 54-342. - Illegal possession of weapons at demonstrations.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to have in his possession or to have in any vehicle any weapon while participating in or attending a demonstration being held at a public place.
(b) It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to have in his possession or to have in any vehicle at a point within 1,000 feet of a demonstration at a public place any weapon after having first been advised by a law enforcement officer that a demonstration was taking place at a public place and after having been ordered by such officer to remove himself from the proscribed area until such time as he no longer is in possession of any weapon. This section shall not apply to any person in possession of any weapon in his private dwelling or place of business.
(c) The following words, terms and phrases, when used in this section, shall have the meanings ascribed to them in this subsection, except where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:
(1) Demonstration shall mean two or more persons assembled together for the purpose of picketing, speechmaking, marching, holding vigils, or other such form of conduct, which has the effect, intent or propensity to draw a crowd or onlookers.
(2) Law enforcement officer shall mean any duly appointed and acting federal, state, or local peace officer and any military or militia personnel called out or directed by constituted authority to keep the law and order provided that the law enforcement officer is on duty and present to actively police and control the demonstration and who is assigned this duty by his department or agency.
(3) Weapons shall mean any pistol, rifle, shotgun or other firearms of any kind whether loaded or unloaded, air rifle, air pistol, knife, hatchet, ax, slingshot, blackjack, metal knuckles, mace, iron buckle, baseball bat, ax handle, chains, crowbar, hammer or other club or bludgeon or any other instrumentality, customarily used or intended for probable use as a dangerous weapon.
(Code 1956, § 42-56.1)
It has existed since before preemption and IS enforceable!
 
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countryclubjoe

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I have no issue with said statues, flags, etc on a persons personal property, that is their choice. However said memorabilia should have NO place on government building's that use tax payer money.. My .02

The voting citizens should decide the issue in their respective state, I would have no problem with a vote..

CCJ
 

utbagpiper

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I have no issue with said statues, flags, etc on a persons personal property, that is their choice. However said memorabilia should have NO place on government building's that use tax payer money..
Why not?

Should we also take down all the AmerIndian monuments from government buildings or land? What makes the various military actions of the Indian Tribes materially different than of the Confederacy?

The voting citizens should decide the issue in their respective state, I would have no problem with a vote..
I agree it should be handled by the citizens of the various States. Whether it should be done via direct democratic vote, or via legislative action (or inaction to maintain the status quo) is another question.

In any case, I believe it is a dangerous thing to dismantle history and culture. What strikes me as most unfortunate and hypocritical is that even as mostly well functioning Southern and (probably by simple, ignorant extension) rural culture are under attack by the socio-political forces of the major cities in Bos-Wash and on the left coast, the grossly failed cultures of the inner city and too many AmerIndian Reservations are preserved and lauded for their diversity.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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I appreciate your thoughtful comments on this.
Thank you.

I have been mulling over many of the matters you touched.

I'm still forming my thoughts on this issue. I agree about the dangers you mention, especially the "where does it end" question. I have an empathy for some of those honestly offended by them. But in some ways, this issue is bit like proposed gun restrictions, even those that may seem to be not entirely unreasonable at first blush (the "shall not be infringed" not withstanding for the purposes of the comparison). There is good reason to distrust the "end game" and the slope is looking pretty slippery when one looks beyond the current acts and rather to the rhetoric of leaders. That is an even more apt comparison when considers that there is little daylight between the leaders/supporters of this movement and the leaders/supporters of the anti-2A types.
Time and again, the thesis of L. Neil Smith's old essay, "Why Did It Have to be .... Guns" is borne out. While not perfect, a man's position on the RKBA is a pretty good litmus test of where he stands on a whole host of other issues.

In this case, I suspect it is more than mere coincidence. Rather, I think the whole War Between the States cuts to the very core of why leftists and other statists so hate private firearms. In aggregate, firearms in private hands represent a limit--ill defined perhaps, but a limit nonetheless--on what can be imposed on the people by "government" or anyone else. We don't often talk of it, and we certainly want to avoid any discussion of illegal conduct. But in the gravest extreme, firearms in private hands represent the ultimate "two word 'NO'" to immoral demands on one's rights. And the War Between the States reminds us all of that.

It was supposed to be a 6 week walk in the park where Northern young men earned their manhood. Instead it was a 4 year slug fest that could have resulted in the dissolution of the Union. Had slavery not been an issue such that Great Britain had been willing to jump in (and denying Lincoln that moral issue to keep up motivation to continue the war), the Confederacy would certainly succeeded at succeeding.

As bad or worse than that for the Bos-Wash crowd, is that the statues and memorials are a reminder that even a brutal war and 150 years are not sufficient to eradicate a culture they have always hated. No, not slavery. Just Southern culture. They hate not because of slavery, but because it isn't their own. Slavery, and the forms that Southern racism take (as contrasted with Northern racism), are just convenient excuses.

Certainly, no one should be celebrating lynchings, slavery, nor other violations of basic rights. But for Southerners, remembering their war heroes of the Confederacy is really no different than the Bos-Wash crowd remembering war heroes who might have fought against American Indian tribes. It is no different than remembering those who fought and died at the Alamo or who otherwise fought against Mexico to gain territory. My own people remember and honor the members of the Mormon Battalion who marched in support of the USA (but did not have to engage to enemy) during the Mexican-American War. I don't think anyone is celebrating the taking of territory by force, nor celebrating a war of aggression. But we remember and honor those who served honorably. Southerners need to be afforded this same right both legally and socially. But the nation is doing just the opposite.

I don't think it ends well. At best, we lose an important perspective on our history.

Charles
 
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countryclubjoe

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Thank you.



Time and again, the thesis of L. Neil Smith's old essay, url=http://www.lneilsmith.org/whyguns.html]"Why Did It Have to be .... Guns"[/url] is borne out. While not perfect, a man's position on the RKBA is a pretty good litmus test of where he stands on a whole host of other issues.

In this case, I suspect it is more than mere coincidence. Rather, I think the whole War Between the States cuts to the very core of why leftists and other statists so hate private firearms. In aggregate, firearms in private hands represent a limit--ill defined perhaps, but a limit nonetheless--on what can be imposed on the people by "government" or anyone else. We don't often talk of it, and we certainly want to avoid any discussion of illegal conduct. But in the gravest extreme, firearms in private hands represent the ultimate "two word 'NO'" to immoral demands on one's rights. And the War Between the States reminds us all of that.

It was supposed to be a 6 week walk in the park where Northern young men earned their manhood. Instead it was a 4 year slug fest that could have resulted in the dissolution of the Union. Had slavery not been an issue such that Great Britain had been willing to jump in (and denying Lincoln that moral issue to keep up motivation to continue the war), the Confederacy would certainly succeeded at succeeding.

As bad or worse than that for the Bos-Wash crowd, is that the statues and memorials are a reminder that even a brutal war and 150 years are not sufficient to eradicate a culture they have always hated. No, not slavery. Just Southern culture. They hate not because of slavery, but because it isn't their own. Slavery, and the forms that Southern racism take (as contrasted with Northern racism), are just convenient excuses.

Certainly, no one should be celebrating lynchings, slavery, nor other violations of basic rights. But for Southerners, remembering their war heroes of the Confederacy is really no different than the Bos-Wash crowd remembering war heroes who might have fought against American Indian tribes. It is no different than remembering those who fought and died at the Alamo or who otherwise fought against Mexico to gain territory. My own people remember and honor the members of the Mormon Battalion who marched in support of the USA (but did not have to engage to enemy) during the Mexican-American War. I don't think anyone is celebrating the taking of territory by force, nor celebrating a war of aggression. But we remember and honor those who served honorably. Southerners need to be afforded this same right both legally and socially. But the nation is doing just the opposite.

I don't think it ends well. At best, we lose an important perspective on our history.

Charles
History shall not be forgotten, simply because some flags, or statues are removed from society.. I doubt the nazi genocide will be forgotten simply because swastikas are not prominently displayed.

Again, I have no issue, with folks that revere such memorabilia, and display said items on their home lawn or their automobile, my issue is when said items are on display at government, tax payer funded property, buildings etc.
I feel my tax dollars would be better served elsewhere, than going towards the upkeep and or salary of the person charged with cleaning and maintaining said statues, plaques, flags etc.. And in my humble opinion, I feel I echo the sentiments of most reasonable minded American's..

My .02
CCJ
 

JamesCanby

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History shall not be forgotten, simply because some flags, or statues are removed from society.. I doubt the nazi genocide will be forgotten simply because swastikas are not prominently displayed.

Again, I have no issue, with folks that revere such memorabilia, and display said items on their home lawn or their automobile, my issue is when said items are on display at government, tax payer funded property, buildings etc.
I feel my tax dollars would be better served elsewhere, than going towards the upkeep and or salary of the person charged with cleaning and maintaining said statues, plaques, flags etc.. And in my humble opinion, I feel I echo the sentiments of most reasonable minded American's..

My .02
CCJ
So... in your "humble opinion" you think "most reasonable minded American's (sic)" would demand the removal of the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial? They were, after all, slave owners.... Think of all the "upkeep and salary of the person charged with cleaning and maintaining" those structures!
 

OC for ME

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While carrying a firearm in Louisiana while in proximity to a demonstration is unlawful it appears that there is no link to the confederacy, or confederate monuments. If you are visibly armed and participated in a black lives matter demonstration you are in violation of the law. This law needs to be repealed.

The question remains, have there been charges brought citing this specific violation? Seems like a slam dunk conviction, in proximity to a demonstration and armed, guilty.
 

utbagpiper

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History shall not be forgotten, simply because some flags, or statues are removed from society.. I doubt the nazi genocide will be forgotten simply because swastikas are not prominently displayed.
The Bos-Wash virtue signaling by making sure to link the Southern States Confederacy with Nazi Germany. Nicely done. You've revealed your disdain for southern culture while maintain plausible deniability since you never actually said "southerners == Hitler".

What has happened to the culture of the Incas as their buildings and religious idols were cast down and replaced with Spanish and Catholic replacements? What exists of the pre-Columbian American Indian culture or language of the Navajo? What is the effect of cochlear implants on the death community?

Culture and community are complicated things. At once, stronger than many opponents hope, yet more fragile than many believe. What is happening with these memorials has nothing to do with money or reducing racial bigotry. It is all about a full assault on a culture that the Bos-Wash and left coast elites despise and hold in utter contempt...as evidenced by the ubiquitous connections to Hitler among such elites.

Again, I have no issue, with folks that revere such memorabilia, and display said items on their home lawn or their automobile, my issue is when said items are on display at government, tax payer funded property, buildings etc.
I feel my tax dollars would be better served elsewhere, than going towards the upkeep and or salary of the person charged with cleaning and maintaining said statues, plaques, flags etc.. And in my humble opinion, I feel I echo the sentiments of most reasonable minded American's..
How many of "your tax dollars" do you figure are being spent in Virginia, Louisiana, Mississippi, or even Utah and Arizona on memorials of any kind?

How many years of "upkeep" and "cleaning" do you figure it requires to remove these memorials?

Do you feel the same way about federal tax dollars being used to maintain Old Ironside, the USS Constitution, Faneuil Hall in Boston, the Battleship Arizona Memorial, or Arlington National Cemetery? What about the Lincoln, Jefferson, or Washington Memorials?

What is different about a statute of Jefferson Davis or General Lee?

This has nothing to do with money. It is about who is offended by and has deep bigotries toward cultures other than their own.

Charles
 

countryclubjoe

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So... in your "humble opinion" you think "most reasonable minded American's (sic)" would demand the removal of the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial? They were, after all, slave owners.... Think of all the "upkeep and salary of the person charged with cleaning and maintaining" those structures!
I would vote to have them taken down.. Washington and Jefferson, while both had courage and brilliant in their respected fields, Indeed, as you so eloquently pointed out, both were slave owners, and therefore petty tyrants.
For all the great things they did in helping to shape America, they were in fact violators of human rights and God's natural laws.. If we are going to acknowledge their greatness, we must also remember their faults.

In my humble opinion, Thomas Paine, Alexander Hamilton, and John Adams possessed more honor than Washington and Jefferson combined..

My .02
CCJ
 

JamesCanby

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So... in your "humble opinion" you think "most reasonable minded American's (sic)" would demand the removal of the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial? They were, after all, slave owners.... Think of all the "upkeep and salary of the person charged with cleaning and maintaining" those structures!
I would vote to have them taken down.. Washington and Jefferson, while both had courage and brilliant in their respected fields, Indeed, as you so eloquently pointed out, both were slave owners, and therefore petty tyrants.
For all the great things they did in helping to shape America, they were in fact violators of human rights and God's natural laws.. If we are going to acknowledge their greatness, we must also remember their faults.

In my humble opinion, Thomas Paine, Alexander Hamilton, and John Adams possessed more honor than Washington and Jefferson combined..

My .02
CCJ
You would vote to have the Washington Monument and the Jefferson Memorial taken down... Your response says so much more about you and your irrationality than anything I could possibly say...
 
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