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CC in City parks

kcgunfan

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So, Parkville MO (near KC) has an ordinance explicitly prohibiting carrying weapons in city park. But, all of their city codes are out of date with respect to CC in general. They certainly have the authority to prohibit OC under the state constitution, but I don't know about CC. I don't believe that 571.107 bans CC under park parks (as opposed to amusement parks) and I don't believe that subdivisions can ban CC anywhere except city facilities (which would imply a building). So, that would seem to make it OK, but I'd hate to get arrested over something that silly.
 

kylemoul

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its concealed. no one will see.

also i dont think they can enforce any CC law in court anyway.
 

cshoff

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, Missouri, USA
A city in Missouri cannot prohibit people who hold a valid CCW endorsement from carrying concealed firearms in a park. Any ordinance they have with such language in it is not enforceable.

They can, however, prohibit CCW permit holders from carrying into any city-owned building that is inside of the park.
 
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lancers

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St. Louis, Missouri, USA
Personally, I would contact both the police and city council, preferably by email (paper trail) and tell them about it. This puts the city "on notice" about the error and if they fail to correct it and someone ends up locked up or harassed by it, the city is fair game for legal action.
 
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kcgunfan

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You're right lancers, and that's in my future plans. It didn't help me with the immediate question though.

When I'm in a city with OC prohibited, I carry CC, but sloppily. Maybe I'll wear a tighter shirt than I should, or wear a shorter shirt and an OWB holster. So, it's not too difficult to show that I am carrying (since printing is legal in MO.) So, there's a good possibility that any LEO that see me might very well know that I'm carrying. That's really why I ask.
 

cshoff

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that falls under the "CC restrictions" as in not being criminal in 563 correct?
You lost me here. Chapter 563 doesn't have anything to do with concealed firearms.

Political subdivisions in Missouri derive all of their statutory authority to make ordinances that restrict, regulate, or prohibit concealed weapons from RSMO 571.107.1.(6). The places in which they can specify those restrictions, regulations, or prohibitions are very specific (buildings only).

I went through this a couple of years ago with the City of Festus. After several failed attempts at reasoning with the mayor and chief of police, I worked with the Attorney General's Office to have their signs removed and their ordinance changed. Needless to say, West City Park is no longer posted.
 

Attachments

kcgunfan

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Email I sent to Asst. City Administrator

Here's the email I sent to Parkville. I would love to hear what I should change or bring up, since there's a few more localities that need addressing around here.

kcgunfan



Mr. Ackerson,

After looking some items up on Parkville's City Codes website, I've located some things that appear to be out of date with current Missouri Revised Statues.

The ordinances I've found are: Section 120.150 A and Section 216.460 A. Section 120.150 A bans all firearms from city parks. Section 216.460 A bans concealed firearms in general. Both of these laws fall afoul of Missouri's statewide preemption of firearms regulation.

The state statute that concerns preemption is RsMO 21.750. You can find it here: http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c000-099/0210000750.htm

The specific subsection that provides for state preemption is 21.750.1. The text is here:
21.750. 1. The general assembly hereby occupies and preempts the entire field of legislation touching in any way firearms, components, ammunition and supplies to the complete exclusion of any order, ordinance or regulation by any political subdivision of this state. Any existing or future orders, ordinances or regulations in this field are hereby and shall be null and void except as provided in subsection 3 of this section.


What subdivisions are permitted to preempt is found in subsection 3:

3. Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070, with appropriate penalty provisions, or which regulates the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction, provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243.

Basically, subdivisions may preempt open carrying of firearms, and discharge of firearms. They may not preempt concealed carry of firearms.

Please let me know what the schedule is for remedying this mistake, and for providing training to your police department. I enjoy taking my children to English Landing Park and spending money in your stores. I am not inclined to forego my and my children's protection based on some out of date city codes, and I would rather not be detained or arrested for doing so. Especially since perceived crimes involving firearms cause a different reaction from law enforcement than, say, jaywalking. That would cause a whole mess of trouble for both myself and your city. You might consider modeling your revised ordinances after Kansas City Missouri.

I would also recommend that you consider permitting the open carry of firearms in the city. The state permits this by default (meaning there is no statute against it.) and empirical evidence shows that criminals simply do not openly carry their firearms. The clear majority of the municipalities in Missouri permit it, and there is certainly not a problem with violence in the streets as a result. And, there is a significant belief that openly displaying a firearm tends to lower crime, since most criminals are looking for soft targets.

If there is still a concern, then please at least consider permitting open carry by CCW endorsement holders, and see how that goes. The CCW endorsement holders have been trained in a county approved course, covering the laws of Missouri and basic firearm safety. They have undergone a Missouri State Highway Patrol background check, and have been approved by a county sheriff.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thank You,
$MY_NAME
 

kcgunfan

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Feb 22, 2011
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KC
I went through this a couple of years ago with the City of Festus. After several failed attempts at reasoning with the mayor and chief of police, I worked with the Attorney General's Office to have their signs removed and their ordinance changed. Needless to say, West City Park is no longer posted.
I like that letter, and suspect that I may need to get one similar to it eventually. What did you do to get it?
 

cshoff

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May 20, 2010
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, Missouri, USA
I like that letter, and suspect that I may need to get one similar to it eventually. What did you do to get it?
You shouldn't need to do anything other than to forward a copy of the letter I attached. There is no need to go through 3 months worth of correspondence with AG's office because I've already done that for you. ;)

The letter applies to ANY political subdivision in the state, no just the City of Festus.
 

kylemoul

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Jan 1, 2011
Messages
640
Location
st louis
You're right lancers, and that's in my future plans. It didn't help me with the immediate question though.

When I'm in a city with OC prohibited, I carry CC, but sloppily. Maybe I'll wear a tighter shirt than I should, or wear a shorter shirt and an OWB holster. So, it's not too difficult to show that I am carrying (since printing is legal in MO.) So, there's a good possibility that any LEO that see me might very well know that I'm carrying. That's really why I ask.
same here...however i do make sure my gun in covered up. someone can think what they want about what is strapped to my hip, it could be occupied, it could be empty (which at work sometimes that is the case and the gun is in my pocket), or it could be my small fanny pack, or flashlight.
the holsters i have only thing that shows is the grip, and that is not too hard for me to cover even with a tighter shirt.

1mm of cloth...
 
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