• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Detained/Harassed by Las Vegas MPD on The Strip during my New Year's trip

varminter22

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
927
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
imported post

Thanks for update, Tommy.

I stand in your support and behind all of my previous comments.

And perhaps the most important question: Did you get girls' phone number(s)???
 

CowboyKen

Regular Member
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
524
Location
, ,
imported post

Agent19 wrote:
SlackwareRobert wrote: snip
I would have asked the cage girl to also provide me with the crap table camera footage
along with my money.
:lol:!
The Cage girl?
The Cage Mgr/Pit Bosscouldn't authorize this.

The only way you'd be allowed to view a tape is if Gaming Control demanded it, the Surveillance Director or someone on par or above him/her authorized it or you went to court.

AZkopper wrote: snip/edit
LVMPD would be within their rights, based on the nature ofthe complaint (posted private property), and the RAS, to conduct a Terry stop (temporary detention w/pat down).
Harrahs property's aren't posted.
(confirmed this with a current employee)

[line]
OP, please FOIA and file a complaint at the bear minimum.

A complaint to the Gamming Control Commission might be entertaining, but I think the casino employees followed procedure perfectly. The customer is not entitled to action. Once floor personel, LE or security intervene all action stops and floor takes control of, and secures,all checks in action or on the layout. It sounds like they did their jobs. I believe that is the only thing that the Commission would review.

Ken
 

Marco

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
3,905
Location
Greene County
imported post

CowboyKen wrote: snip/edit
A complaint to the Gaming Control Commission might be entertaining, but I think the casino employees followed procedure perfectly.
The post you quoted I was stating to file a complaint on the LEO's not security.

A complaint w/ GC might get the video recordings preserved nothing more, however there is no harm in trying. (nothing to lose)
After 15yrs in surveillance I've seen GC make some at:question: rulings.

The video might already be preserved but the casino will usually keep that a secret, at least from the GP.

[line]
OP, educate these officer's with a complaint and law suit if possible.
 

suntzu

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
1,230
Location
The south land
imported post

You can call the Nevada Bar Association, or the Arizona Bar Assoc., however, I suspect that if you contact an attorney in Arizona--they are going to tell you that what you need is a civil rights attorney in Nevada as that may be the most correct venue for the suit.

Call your Congressional Representative and ask him/her to find out for you why you were mistreated by the LVMPD--considering you were in Nevada at the time--your Congressional Rep may be able to help you.
 

codename_47

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
376
Location
, ,
imported post

No, no before you go talking about what happened, get a lawyer on retainer, draft up a statement, and then work off of that. Any inconsistencies will hurt you. There is no need to rush. Lawsuits take months if not years sometimes.
 

suntzu

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
1,230
Location
The south land
imported post

codename_47 wrote:
No, no before you go talking about what happened, get a lawyer on retainer, draft up a statement, and then work off of that. Any inconsistencies will hurt you. There is no need to rush. Lawsuits take months if not years sometimes.
and obtain a copy of the police report, if they made one--and the call that came into the police requesting them to come out and investigate you to begin with....
 

SlackwareRobert

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2008
Messages
1,338
Location
Alabama, ,
imported post

Have you gotten your "dagger" back yet?

Another thing to check on, did they tresspass OJ. Might go to show a double standard.
Have a gun no problem, have a holster very bad.
Also did they tresspass the other upstanding citizen from the bathroom who had a gun?

I wouldn't have posed for the camera myself, they have plenty of footage already.
If they wanted your picture, you should have demanded payment for it.
But then I wouldn't have left the table till my play was finnished or they arrested me,
I would have let them do a patdown at the table if they requested it to 'search' for the missing gun.
With the instruction that they may only do so only for thier
safety that I donot have a gun on me. No pocket searches, obviously if the holster
is for a 1911 full size pistol, they have no cause to do a cavity search where it won't fit.
But I wouldn't leave on my own. Besides it is a very nice jail downtown......

But you better hurry on the suit, apparently Harrad's is haveing money trouble, and
closing some of there operations. So get yours quick.
 

codename_47

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
376
Location
, ,
imported post

With the instruction that they may only do so only for thier
safety that I donot have a gun on me.

You are giving consent to a search. Haven't you learned anything from the driver in CA?
 

smn

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
145
Location
, ,
imported post

Thanks for the update as I'm late in this thread. I think a pertinent case to read is Ubiles. Unfortunately Ubiles is a 3d circuit ruling but has great merit.

Kahli Ubiles unlawfully possessed an unregistered firearm while attending a crowded street festival in St. Thomas. Acting on an anonymous tip that Ubiles possessed a gun, local authorities also in attendance stopped and frisked him. The authorities' "Terry" search proved fruitful, and they seized the firearm and arrested him. The United States subsequently filed an indictment against Ubiles, who unsuccessfully moved to have the gun suppressed on the ground that it was seized unlawfully. A jury acquitted Ubiles of a federal charge and convicted him of the possession of an unregistered firearm, in violation of V.I. CODE ANN. tit. 14, S 2253(a). This appeal followed.

Holding that the search and seizure of Ubiles was unlawful, we will reverse. The Terry stop in this case was not supported by reasonable suspicion "that criminal activity [was] afoot . . . ." Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 30 (1968). First, it is not a crime to possess a firearm in the Virgin Islands--even when standing in a crowd. Second, the anonymous tipster who approached the authorities had said nothing that would indicate that Ubiles possessed the gun unlawfully (e.g., without registration); that he was committing or about to commit a crime; or that he posed a threat to the officers or anyone in the crowd. Therefore, the stop and subsequent search were unjustified because the precondition for a Terry stop was not present in this case. In reaching this conclusion, we reject the Government's contention that Ubiles had a lessened expectation of privacy because he was standing in a crowd. We will therefore vacate the conviction and remand for further proceedings.1
Another great case is Forida v. JL.
Holding: An anonymous tip that a person of a particular description and at specified location is carrying a firearm is not enough to justify a Terry stop and frisk by police officers.

It's an easy case for want of a lawsuit, however, it would be incumbent upon you for a FOIA request (or NV equivalent) to find if there is a policy by LEO to detain anyone with a firearm. Upon having this in writing a lawsuit becomes much easier and the real legwork/coverup begins.

LEO are not trained to deal with lawfully armed citizens on a regular basis. They need the training and the exposure and conditioning.
 

AZkopper

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2008
Messages
675
Location
Prescott, Arizona, USA
imported post

OK, I wish to do a revision of my opinion, based on information given by Agent19.

Agent19 posted that it has been confirmed that the casino was not posted for 'no firearms'. Given that NV allows OCing, and CCing with permit (therefore carrying of firearm are inherently legal acts there), and the premises was not posted as I believed (an assumptionI made, and akey part of my previous argument), LVMPD had no right to anything more than a consent encounter with the OP (If they should contact him at all).

Please, no "ass*u*me" comments.

If Harrah's doesn't want firearms in their casinos, they really should post signs.

Despite differing opinions here, I would stick by my original opinion, had the casino been posted at the entrance.
 

NewZealandAmerican

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
348
Location
Greater Salt Lake City Metro area far south suburb
imported post

TommyJ1912 wrote:
Hello All,

I apologize for not responding to everyone's comments until now. I've been ill with a cold for the past couple of days. Also, I wanted to take the time to try to address as many issues as I could in one post.

First off, I want to thank everyone for their support and encouragement in this matter. Despite some differences of opinion, we all have a common interest in protecting our Second Amendment (and, for most of us, state constitutional) right to keep and bear arms in defense of one's self and liberty (not to mention the rest of our natural rights). I'm glad that my post of this incident has spurred a great debate amongst the members of this forum.

Second, I need to clarify a few things. As mentioned by my friend Jon in the transcript, I am a lawyer (currently non-practicing in AZ). I'm a graduate of Syracuse University - College of Law. I've also been a strong political advocate since the age of 16 when I first joined the Libertarian Party and several libertarian-oriented groups. As an undergrad at Brandeis University (a nearly 100% left-liberal campus), I was Editor-in-Chief of the university's only libertarian magazine ("Freedom Magazine") and founder/president of the first Libertarian Party club on campus, as well as on the board of Students for the Second Amendment. I was instrumental in bringing a number of notable speakers to campus including Dinesh D'Souza, Ann Coulter, and my personal favorite - Charlton Heston (who received perhaps the largest protest on campus in recent memory; please read a transcript of his fantastic speech here - http://www.massnews.com/past_issues/2000/5_May/mayhes.htm).

I don't state all of the above for vanity or to stroke my own ego. I merely wish to point out that I am a strong advocate for liberty everyday of my life. So, in addition to the fact that I had my holster on for OCing while in Nevada, I wore it empty inside of places that are not firearm friendly (i.e., the casinos - none of which had any posted signs outside the premises banning weapons) to show my support for gun rights and to spark conversations/debates with people who were most likely not from firearm permissive states (or even countries for that matter). I was not wearing it with the intention of getting into a LEO encounter to file a lawsuit or because I'm some sort of "goof"/"showboat." I can't tell you how many wonderful experiences I've had talking to total strangers about gov't, taxes, politics, etc. They might not always agree with my viewpoint, but I often expose them to sides of a debate that they've never even heard before.

During this last trip to Las Vegas, I visited several casinos while displaying the holster including: Startosphere, Wynn, Casino Royale, and El Cortez. I received some definite looks from security at Casino Royale, but none that I could detect from the other establishments. All told, not a single security guard even approached me to ask if I was armed. I know that several dealers at these casinos noticed exactly what was on my hip, but they were entirely fine with it and I even spoke to a couple about firearm laws, models, etc. If anything, it's the t-shirts I wear that get the most attention (bOffensive.com has lots of great ones in the "Freedom" section).

The incident at O'Shea's probably wouldn't have happened save for the story I left out of my original post. About 30 min. before the police first approached me, there was a group of three young women who were on their way out of the casino when they stopped by my side at the craps table. They were all extremely drunk and one of them was in possession of two realistic looking phalli. Without even asking me, she places both dildos inside of the holster and they all tell me they want to take pictures of it, laughing hysterically the entire time. They seem really nice, so I have no objection. After taking the pictures, I ask the girls if they're part of some sort of engagement/bridal party. The woman's deadpan reply was priceless - "No, we just like penises." The players by my side at the craps table couldn't stop laughing. Needless to say, this probably drew a lot of attention to my holster from others at the casino. From what I could gather, it was just a single person's complaint to security that started the ball rolling. Absolutely no one else up to that point had a problem with me or the holster.

Anyway, with regard to the weapons in my possession: Even though O'Shea's had no signs posted, I knew it was a safe bet that I wouldn't be permitted to OC in the casino. So, with no firearm for protection, it's always a good idea to have alternatives at the ready. Even if one carries a firearm, I'm a big proponent of also carrying less lethal options - large crowds could make a firearm tactically unsound and there are plently of situations where using deadly physical force would not be justified, but items like a Taser or pepper spray may be used to repel/pacify an attacker (e.g., simple assault). Before I travel anywhere outside of Arizona, I always research the legality of anything I plan to bring with me. I'll address my possessions one-by-one:

C2 Taser: an excellent alternative to a firearm with an effective range of ~15', but each catridge is only good for one shot (which is why it's best to carry more alternatives); the cartridge can be removed after use for the Taser to act as a regular stun-gun
[LEGAL in NV: see NRS 202.357]

Fox Labs 1.5 oz. "Mean Green" Pepper Spray: effective range of 6'-10' and perhaps the best spray on the market; the green dye easily identifies an attacker (I mistakenly noted it as 4.0 oz. in the original post)
[LEGAL in NV: see NRS 202.375 - note that for all non-natural chemically based OC sprays, NV places a limit on each "cartridge" at 2.0 oz.]

Ka-Bar TDI Model 1480 LE Knife: I basically use this as more of a utility knife, but it is excellent in a close quarters fight, especially to defend against a "gun-grab" situation when OCing with one's weak side hand
[LEGAL in NV: see NRS 202.350 - only belt-buckle and switchblade knives are banned; dirks, daggers, and machetes may not be concealed]

Grip Kubotan: again, I basically use this as a keychain, but it may also be used in a close quarters fight (one mistake I made in my original post is that this model is made from solid aluminum - I have others that are plastic); here's the actual one I had on me - http://www.defensedevices.com/gripkubaton.html
[LEGAL in NV: see NRS 202.350 - note that no mention is made of a "kubotan" by name and, as you can clearly see from the picture in the above link, it is not similar in any way to any other weapon noted in the statute - to call it a "dagger" as the police did is total B.S. - it has a large, bulbous, tapered head with no sharp point and absolutely no blade or sharp edges]

ASP Hinged Handcuffs: these are certainly not a weapon per se and not something I normally carry; let me be clear - I have no desire to act as a LEO, nor engage in "kinky acts;" however, I knew that I'd be walking along The Strip at a very late hour on several nights (much later than I'd normally be out and about) and handcuffs provide a little bit of added insurance to restrain an attacker, particularly if I do not have a firearm on me (which I didn't since I was darting directly in and out of the casinos)

Olympus WS-331 DVR: as noted by several members of this forum, a DVR is a necessity for anyone who OCs (especially if you're from a rights-restrictive state) and is hardly a "screwball" idea; OCing will make you stand out from everyone else and lead to a possible LEO encounter - should that encounter "go bad" for one reason or another, without the DVR, it will just be your word against the LEO - who do you think a prosecutor/judge is more likely to believe?; plus, mine also acts as an MP3 player and "jump drive" for storing computer files

So, that's a little more background on myself and the events surrounding this incident...

Now, what to do about the future? I've contacted a number of NV law firms that are listed by the state bar under federal civil suits. I haven't come across a single firm that's ever filed a 42 U.S.C. 1983 suit. If anyone has any contacts that I can explore for firms in NV or AZ, I would appreciate it if you could PM me that information. My general feeling is that it will be extremely difficult to find a firm that will take this case on contingency. While it might be clear to almost all of us that the LVMPD did not have sufficient "reasonable suspicion" to initiate a Terry stop in this incident, the threshold for the standard, while not quantifiable, is quite low and prosecutors I have spoken with did advocate a position similar to Thundar's post (empty holster=possible concealed weapon). :( The thing that does add strength to the case is the Sgt.'s acknowledgment that OC is completely legal and his subsequent threat to detain myself (or anyone else) who lawfully OCs.
I not sure how you would do this since most lawyers will probably tell you that you can't is to find out how to file a "CRIMINAL" complaint against the police officers involved, emphasis Criminal, NOT civil. because it is the RIGHT of a Citizen to file criminal complaints against any public official no matter what contrary information the government or lawyers may say! Yes, we the people even have a right to access the 4th branch of govt too in order to file criminaly against public officers and that branch is the "sword of the people" otherwise known as the Grand Jury which you may notice that most courthouses cleverly try to decieve by almost concealng access to the Grand Jury from the public!
 

CowboyKen

Regular Member
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
524
Location
, ,
imported post

AZkopper wrote:
OK, I wish to do a revision of my opinion, based on information given by Agent19.

Agent19 posted that it has been confirmed that the casino was not posted for 'no firearms'. Given that NV allows OCing, and CCing with permit (therefore carrying of firearm are inherently legal acts there), and the premises was not posted as I believed (an assumptionI made, and akey part of my previous argument), LVMPD had no right to anything more than a consent encounter with the OP (If they should contact him at all).

Please, no "ass*u*me" comments.

If Harrah's doesn't want firearms in their casinos, they really should post signs.

Despite differing opinions here, I would stick by my original opinion, had the casino been posted at the entrance.

What difference would it make if the casino were "posted for 'no firearms'" or not? Such signs do not mean anything in Nevada. They do not have to be obeyed under Nevada law. Oh, and he didn't have a gun anyway!

Ken
 

Gordie

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2008
Messages
716
Location
, Nevada, USA
imported post

CowboyKen wrote:

What difference would it make if the casino were "posted for 'no firearms'" or not? Such signs do not mean anything in Nevada. They do not have to be obeyed under Nevada law.
Actually, they do have to obeyed. Not obeying the sign opens you up tobeing asked to leave, and then, if you refuse,atrespassing charge.
 

varminter22

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
927
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
imported post

Gordie wrote:
CowboyKen wrote:

What difference would it make if the casino were "posted for 'no firearms'" or not? Such signs do not mean anything in Nevada. They do not have to be obeyed under Nevada law.
Actually, they do have to obeyed. Not obeying the sign opens you up tobeing asked to leave, and then, if you refuse,atrespassing charge.

I reckon that is true, Gordie.

BUT, if one leaves as/when requested, NO trespassing charge, right??

So, maybe it does make a difference in the original poster's incident. After all, he was obeying all laws, had been in the casino for hours - and didn't even have a firearm! - but even if he did have a firearm on his person, hecomplied with all requests of the security and LEO personnel.

We've always been told that "no firearms" signs do not carry the force of law, but one must leave if/when requested - and only if you do NOT comply will you be accused of trespassing.

Thats how I understand it anyway.
 

SlackwareRobert

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2008
Messages
1,338
Location
Alabama, ,
imported post

Forgive my ignorence, but if you are already a lawyer, couldn't you just get
a local person to 'sponsor' the suite? You would handle the case, but need a local attorney to have the appearence of legality affirmed. Since it is a federal
case, the law won't change over the AZ NV border. With no legal work needed
by the lawyer, just get a new bar graduate to sit second chair to satisfy the locals.
 

Gordie

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2008
Messages
716
Location
, Nevada, USA
imported post

varminter22 wrote:
Gordie wrote:
CowboyKen wrote:

What difference would it make if the casino were "posted for 'no firearms'" or not? Such signs do not mean anything in Nevada. They do not have to be obeyed under Nevada law.
Actually, they do have to obeyed. Not obeying the sign opens you up tobeing asked to leave, and then, if you refuse,atrespassing charge.

I reckon that is true, Gordie.

BUT, if one leaves as/when requested, NO trespassing charge, right??

So, maybe it does make a difference in the original poster's incident. After all, he was obeying all laws, had been in the casino for hours - and didn't even have a firearm! - but even if he did have a firearm on his person, hecomplied with all requests of the security and LEO personnel.

We've always been told that "no firearms" signs do not carry the force of law, but one must leave if/when requested - and only if you do NOT comply will you be accused of trespassing.

Thats how I understand it anyway.

I agree, I was replying to the poster that said:
Such signs do not mean anything in Nevada. They do not have to be obeyed under Nevada law.

If you ignore the wishes of the property owner, there are legal ramifications. If you bring a gun into a posted business, they have the legal right to ask you to leave.

What happened to the OP was way over the line, posted or not.
 

CowboyKen

Regular Member
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
524
Location
, ,
imported post

Gordie wrote:
I agree, I was replying to the poster that said:
Such signs do not mean anything in Nevada. They do not have to be obeyed under Nevada law.

If you ignore the wishes of the property owner, there are legal ramifications. If you bring a gun into a posted business, they have the legal right to ask you to leave.

What happened to the OP was way over the line, posted or not.

Just FYI, Gordie, they have the "legal right to ask you to leave" sign or no sign, gun or no gun, for any reason or no reason, just beacuse they want to. That is the trespass law in Nevada.

No gun signs don't mean anything in Nevada.

Ken
 

Gordie

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2008
Messages
716
Location
, Nevada, USA
imported post

The "No Guns" signs are different from other signs in their legality. You say that people can ask you to leave their business for any reason, not entirely true. Put up a sign saying "No Catholics" or "No Muslims" or "No Gays" and see what happens.

The signs provide more of a protection from legal action to the property owners than any true restriction to gun owners. If you refuse service because of a person's religious beliefs you would be sued, if you refuse service because of his being armed, as long as it is posted, you are safe. In that sense, they do have legal authority.

In many regards they are like "No Smoking" signs.
 

CowboyKen

Regular Member
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
524
Location
, ,
imported post

Gordie wrote:
The signs provide more of a protection from legal action to the property owners than any true restriction to gun owners. If you refuse service because of a person's religious beliefs you would be sued, if you refuse service because of his being armed, as long as it is posted, you are safe. In that sense, they do have legal authority.

In many regards they are like "No Smoking" signs.

Sorry that you just don't get it. It DOES NOT HAVE TO BE POSTED! IT DOESN"T MATTER IF IT IS POSTED OR NOT!

In Nevada such signs mean nothing, one way or the other and the trespass law is what it is. Do you want me to post a link to the trespass law so you can read it?

Ken
 
Top