Disguishing a LEGAL vs. ILLEGAL open carry individuals?

[FreedomVA]

Beside looking like a gang banger with a wife beater and pants that don't fit, how do you distinguish one from the other when you open carry?

 

[FreedomVA]

What is an ILLEGAL open carry individual that one might encounter such in normal daily life? We once had an avowed corrections officer that probably came across ILLEGAL open carriers daily, but he was run off long ago, and is missed.

like a thug felon that dress like an average citizen, but is illegally in possession of a firearm and in the same store's you're in and waiting to rob someone?

 

[FreedomVA]

If you're old and with vast experience and situational awareness then that's like a marquee on their forehead and in their eyes! [blink]THUG FELON[/blink]

What about the newbie going through initiations?

I see more gang members dressing more appropriately to fit in nowadays because of the stigmata they are getting. Remember when tattoos was a stigmata, but now most has one.

i'm a medium buck.

 

[Firearms Iinstuctor]

Bad guys pull their guns out and use them illegally.

 

[gutshot II]

Most of the illegal open carriers that I have run into began life as legal open carriers, or at least just legal individuals. When they crossed over from legal to become illegal, I didn't notice much change in their appearence. It is very inconvenient that it is difficult to tell the difference, by sight alone, between law abiding citizens and criminals and I haven't completely developed that talent yet. I wish we could get them to wear a sign or something. Maybe signs saying "Illegally Armed Individual" or "Illegal OC in Progress" might help identify these persons.

 

[FreedomVA]

Most of the illegal open carriers that I have run into began life as legal open carriers, or at least just legal individuals. When they crossed over from legal to become illegal, I didn't notice much change in their appearence. It is very inconvenient that it is difficult to tell the difference, by sight alone, between law abiding citizens and criminals and I haven't completely developed that talent yet. I wish we could get them to wear a sign or something. Maybe signs saying "Illegally Armed Individual" or "Illegal OC in Progress" might help identify these persons.

So according to your statement, i see why LEO asked for ID when they see a person open carry in public, am i wrong?

 

[gutshot II]

So according to your statement, i see why LEO asked for ID when they see a person open carry in public, am i wrong?

Of course you are wrong. You are not me and by the customs and common usage here on OCDO, everyone that is not me is wrong to everyone that is not them. This thread, and the comments in it, are about distinguishing legal from illegal OC'ers by sight. There are plenty of other threads here on OCDO concerning LEO asking for and demanding ID. If you want to discuss that issue, I suggest you go to one of those threads and not attempt to derail or highjack this thread. Thank you.

 

[FreedomVA]

Of course you are wrong. You are not me and by the customs and common usage here on OCDO, everyone that is not me is wrong to everyone that is not them. This thread, and the comments in it, are about distinguishing legal from illegal OC'ers by sight. There are plenty of other threads here on OCDO concerning LEO asking for and demanding ID. If you want to discuss that issue, I suggest you go to one of those threads and not attempt to derail or highjack this thread. Thank you.

i started this thread, so how can i hijack a thread i started? Don't be that LEO that jump the gun and overreact

 

[utbagpiper]

Beside looking like a gang banger with a wife beater and pants that don't fit, how do you distinguish one from the other when you open carry?

I've never seen what I believed was an "illegal OCer". I suspect that at least until such time as OC becomes so common as to not raise a mention among anyone at all, that most criminal types are much more likely to conceal.

That said, there are a few things that might alert me to a OCer being illegal.

1-I personally know the OCer to be a prohibited person: Convicted felon or DV, addicted to or using prohibited drugs, etc.

2-The person is OCing in an off-limits location or otherwise in contradiction of statute. This might not tell me much about intent vs ignorance, much less intent to commit some act of criminal violence. But it will indicate to me that an OCer is violating some law.

3-Overall comportment. Someone all tatted out and in baggy pants but behaving as a gentlemen is likely to be a peaceable individual with a sense of style I don't share. Someone in a suit, acting like a thug, might actually be a thug with good fashion sense.

4-Beyond those characteristics observable with the physical senses, I also firmly believe in paying attention to the non-physical senses. Call it the 6th sense, call it gut feel, call it the promptings of the Holy Spirit, call it your spidey sense. The name doesn't matter. While it is not a substitute for good SA and other preparedness, neither should it be ignored if it alerts even in the absence of anything else. When the hairs go up on the back of the neck, it is time to find somewhere else to be or to take up the most defensible position possible.

 

[gutshot II]

So according to your statement, i see why LEO asked for ID when they see a person open carry in public, am i wrong?

Personally, I disagree with this tactic by LEO, but if you want to condone it, its up to you.

 

[FreedomVA]

Personally, I disagree with this tactic by LEO, but if you want to condone it, its up to you.

i'm in the same boat as you, i just brainstorming

 

[WalkingWolf]

KISS

The open carrier breaking laws, committing crimes. Outside that I don't worry about everyone else whether they are a felon, or not. As long as they do not pose a threat to my family, or myself I just don't care. It is like worrying about which driver has a drivers license.

 

[Fallschirjmäger]

So according to your statement, i see why LEO asked for ID when they see a person open carry in public, am i wrong?

Could you explain, please, how identifying someone proves or disproves any reasonable suspicion that their current actions are criminal?

It might identify someone with a warrant, or someone who was prohibited from carrying, but mere identification ex post facto does not establish any suspicion of a previous event.

Further, to the best of my knowledge Virginia doesn't even have a "stop and identify" statute authorizing a law enforcement officer to demand identification.

 

[Bikenut]

The open carrier breaking laws, committing crimes. Outside that I don't worry about everyone else whether they are a felon, or not. As long as they do not pose a threat to my family, or myself I just don't care. It is like worrying about which driver has a drivers license.

Aha! The voice of reason sure to be ignored.

 

[RedNeck Texan]

Since the above that was taken out of this equation dress, general presentation of self, looking like a gang banger with a wife beater and pants that don't fit, my criteria is:

A close look at his carry rig. As an instructor it has been my experience that those who carry buy quality gear.
The gun carried. Quality maker and formidable caliber or Raven .380
Real gun belt or wally world sagger.
Quality holster whether leather or kydex or $19.95 Nylon.
Retention or only an open top shooter sack
Extra ammo or no.

I have only seen one OC since day one that showed no regard for the above.
If Joe Citizen has the above he will have $1500.00 around his waste and no illegal gang ganger or show off citizen is going to spend that money.
My opinion and YMMV.

 

[solus]

Since the above that was taken out of this equation dress, general presentation of self, looking like a gang banger with a wife beater and pants that don't fit, my criteria is:

A close look at his carry rig. As an instructor it has been my experience that those who carry buy quality gear.
The gun carried. Quality maker and formidable caliber or Raven .380
Real gun belt or wally world sagger.
Quality holster whether leather or kydex or $19.95 Nylon.
Retention or only an open top shooter sack
Extra ammo or no.

I have only seen one OC since day one that showed no regard for the above.
If Joe Citizen has the above he will have $1500.00 around his waste and no illegal gang ganger or show off citizen is going to spend that money.
My opinion and YMMV.

unless of course, joe ganger stole billy bob's rig...uh just saying ya know!

 

[RedNeck Texan]

unless of course, joe ganger stole billy bob's rig...uh just saying ya know!

Outside possibility I guess but don't believe we can find a police report on theft of Billy Bob's rig and the thief getting arrested walking around w/ it.

Before OC passed I talked to several LEOs that needed to know how they would be able to tell. I never had one disagree.
All liked it.
I did make sure I complimented them on their training in situation awareness and personal observation.
Use the skills you have practiced and refined. They all so far have agreed.

 

[gutshot II]

Since the above that was taken out of this equation dress, general presentation of self, looking like a gang banger with a wife beater and pants that don't fit, my criteria is:

A close look at his carry rig. As an instructor it has been my experience that those who carry buy quality gear.
The gun carried. Quality maker and formidable caliber or Raven .380
Real gun belt or wally world sagger.
Quality holster whether leather or kydex or $19.95 Nylon.
Retention or only an open top shooter sack
Extra ammo or no.

I have only seen one OC since day one that showed no regard for the above.
If Joe Citizen has the above he will have $1500.00 around his waste and no illegal gang ganger or show off citizen is going to spend that money.
My opinion and YMMV.

Outside possibility I guess but don't believe we can find a police report on theft of Billy Bob's rig and the thief getting arrested walking around w/ it.

Before OC passed I talked to several LEOs that needed to know how they would be able to tell. I never had one disagree.
All liked it.
I did make sure I complimented them on their training in situation awareness and personal observation.
Use the skills you have practiced and refined. They all so far have agreed.

So, the rule of thumb for Texas LEO is that unless a person has $1500 to spend on his firearm and its accessories and more to spend on his attire, he should be rousted, ID'ed and checked out completely, and you agree with that policy because your experience is that "law abiding citizens" look like that. The lower income working man is suspicious and needs to be investigated, especially if he has some dirt under his fingernails. Is that about it?

 

[solus]

So, the rule of thumb for Texas LEO is that unless a person has $1500 to spend on his firearm and its accessories and more to spend on his attire, he should be rousted, ID'ed and checked out completely, and you agree with that policy because your experience is that "law abiding citizens" look like that. The lower income working man is suspicious and needs to be investigated, especially if he has some dirt under his fingernails. Is that about it?

remember gutshot...the Texas citizen's abrogated their OC to a privilege tied to a concealed permit w/provisions the nice LE's do not need any type of RAS to stop an OC'r to demand to see the citizen's 'papers' allowing them to carry!

my shield is carried in a canvas non-retained uncle mike "wanta be" w/no extra mags on my nylon belt...guess i am a suspect to be rousted...sigh.

 

[color of law]

remember gutshot...the Texas citizen's abrogated their OC to a privilege tied to a concealed permit w/provisions the nice LE's do not need any type of RAS to stop an OC'r to demand to see the citizen's 'papers' allowing them to carry!

my shield is carried in a canvas non-retained uncle mike "wanta be" w/no extra mags on my nylon belt...guess i am a suspect to be rousted...sigh.

Under your roman toga, of course.....