45acpForMe
Newbie
Interesting article. http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/does-bible-tell-churchgoers-to-disarm/
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Does the Bible tell churchgoers to disarm?
- Thread starter 45acpForMe
- Start date
M
McX
Guest
Go to first new post Does the Bible tell churchgoers to disarm?
no, but anti- gun politically correct Ministers do.
no, but anti- gun politically correct Ministers do.
Fallschirjmäger
Active member
Not unless someone's going to say that Colonial America wasn't closely reading their Bibles.
of Early Virginia, 1606-1625 (New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1907; reprinted New York: Barnes & Noble, 1959), 273. Spelling, punctuation, and capitalization have been modernized.
England (Boston: William White, 1853), 1:190.
Clayton Cramer.Com and additional interesting reading at Second Amendment Federation.Com
-August 2, 1619, “Proceedings of the Virginia Assembly, 1619,” in Lyon Gardiner Tyler, Narratives
of Early Virginia, 1606-1625 (New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1907; reprinted New York: Barnes & Noble, 1959), 273. Spelling, punctuation, and capitalization have been modernized.
- William Hand Browne, ed., Archives of Maryland (Baltimore: Maryland Historical Society, 1885), 1:103.
- Nathaniel B. Shurtleff, Records of the Governor and Company of the Massachusetts Bay in New
England (Boston: William White, 1853), 1:190.
Clayton Cramer.Com and additional interesting reading at Second Amendment Federation.Com
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Shoobee
Regular Member
When you go to church I think you should leave your gun in your car, locked in the trunk.
You will probably never need it.
And if you ever do, you will want to exit the church fast anyway, gun or no gun.
The Sikhs have a new problem -- all the nutjobs are confusing them with Arabs.
So the Sikhs need armed security, at least one guard, discretely armed, near the altar, to watch over the priests.
You will probably never need it.
And if you ever do, you will want to exit the church fast anyway, gun or no gun.
The Sikhs have a new problem -- all the nutjobs are confusing them with Arabs.
So the Sikhs need armed security, at least one guard, discretely armed, near the altar, to watch over the priests.
45acpForMe
Newbie
Then the only time you might get to use it is if the terrorists violently force you into your trunk!!!!
You can leave yours in your trunk, mine will be on my person!
mobiushky
Regular Member
I hope you are joking or at least being sarcastic. I haven't read the article above, but you might want to take a look at this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings
The only reason the guy was stopped was because of a person carrying while at the church.
Fallschirjmäger
Active member
- Don B. Kates, Jr., “Handgun Prohibition and the Original Meaning of the Second Amendment,” 82 Michigan Law Review (1983), pp. 216-217.
I'd say there was plenty of precedent for Mandating carrying of arms to worship.
hermannr
Regular Member
I do hope you are being sarcastic? I carry in church, Open Carry. Guess what...? no-body says a thing.
I carry in church also, dont OC, but have gone in on a Sat.to drop something off OCing, no one said a thing. Why not carry in church? From the past ive heard of churches being targets for some nut job. Again, why not?
It can be very difficult for people of faith to accept the idea that violence and evil must be met with violence. Unfortunately, the results of failing to do so can be horrible. Get your minds right, make a plan and take care of your family and friends.
I carry EVERYWHERE, I refuse to get caught up in someone else's BS.
If your one of those people that carry and NOT use your gun to defend or protect, why are you carrying?
OC for ME
Regular Member
Told my preacher.....if my gun is not welcome then my 15% per year is apparently not welcome.....guess what, my gun is welcomed after all.
OC for ME
Regular Member
The 15% is on top of the Jackson I toss in the dish every Sunday.
Jack House
Regular Member
I think you just made an excellent argument for NOT attending that church. That is unless you are going to admit that churches only care about money and not about anything else.
griffin
Regular Member
This probably more properly belongs in the "Why I quote Bible Scripture re. firearm ownership and self defence" thread, but that has devolved into whether the Bible is to be believed or not. It almost fits here just as well. (Maybe I'll put it there as well).
Yes, I believe Christians should carry a firearm if they wish, even in church. I think we have a Biblical responsibility to at least protect our loved ones and those around us. God seems to uses human agency. That is, God provides our food, yes, but we don't sit at home and watch Oprah, waiting for manna from heaven to drop in front of our big, flat-screen TV (and I don't even have a big, flat-screen TV). God expects me to work for which I get a paycheck whereby I can pay the store who bought the bread from a baker who bought grain from a farmer who used a tractor to till and harvest the field which God caused to grow through sun and rain and the marvels of life. God could directly give us the food, but he doesn't. He could even nourish us directly into the blood stream, but He delights to use us as tools to accomplish His will of providing for us.
We could all refuse the care of physicians and the wonders of modern medicine, saying God will keep us well, but it doesn't work that way. We live in a fallen world. We avail ourselves of doctors and medicine when needed.
It seems that the same is true of self-defense as well, as backed up by scripture as I understand it. Here are some comments I wrote after an article appeared in a Christian site about carrying firearms. They are a collection of some of what I wrote, so they may seem a bit disjoint standing on their own here, but I trust you'll follow along easily. My remarks about violence are in response to someone who asserted Christians are never to use violence. I also left out my comments/questions to another about Christians being in the military or law enforcement (i.e., should Christians carry a firearm and kill people simply because their boss tells them it's okay? It's their job to defend themselves with deadly force if necessary, but it's not our job to defend ourselves with deadly force if necessary? Or should Christians not be a part of government?)
+++++
There is nothing in the Bible that teaches pacifism in the face of evil for all believers. I would address one assertion made that all missionaries or those working abroad (or at home) do not defend themselves. That is simply not the case. You should read about the St. James Church Massacre in Africa. The missionary and pastor Charl Van Wyk pulled his own gun and fired back at the attackers, saving untold lives. The assertion that people "working for God" always go about unarmed or unprotected by escorts who are armed is simply not the case.
Even here in the US many churches, particularly large ones, have armed security. And on occasion they have had to use it. To say their considered Biblical positions are wrong and that they are simply not trusting God would, I think, be inaccurate.
Obviously you cannot only provide your family with housing and food, but with spiritual guidance, love, and protection as well. We are not to allow wicked to flourish.
The Bible clearly distinguishes the difference between the duties of the government and the duties of the individual. Governments have the responsibility of the administration of justice. The individual has the responsibility of self-defense, of protecting their lives and the lives of their loved ones from attackers. Both the Old and New Testaments teach individual self-defense.
Remember, Jesus *is* The Word, and The Word is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Heb 13:8 I am the Lord, I do not change. Mal 3:6 All scripture (including the OT) is profitable for doctrine... 2 Tim 3:16
We've already talked about Luke 22:36 and Matt 26:52-54. While Christ told Peter to put away his sword, he clearly did not tell him to get rid of it forever. That would have contradicted what he had told the disciples only hours before. His sword was to protect his own life from danger. It was not needed to protect Jesus, the Creator of the Universe.
Jesus summarized all the laws of the Bible into two: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. He then gave the illustration of the Good Samaritan, who took care of a victim. If you had the opportunity to save the life of an innocent victim by shooting an attacker, should you instead turn the other cheek? The Bible speaks of no right to allow innocents to be murdered, but it does speak of responsibilities in the face of an attack as providers and neighbors.
God clearly showed us in the OT the relationship between righteousness and self-defense. When the people left God in the time of the judges, and later when they rebelled and demanded a king, it resulted in disarmament and oppression.
There may be some times when it is appropriate not to be armed, such as suffering for the gospel. If you are evangelizing, perhaps you would choose not to be strapped. But then again, I think those would be times when you alone are in danger.
To those who say fighting back—self-defense—is not what God would have us do, do you also stop to help others out on the side of the road when they are in trouble? Give a ride to those whose cars have broken down? Clearly the parable of the Good Samaritan teaches that we should help others in distress. If you say, "no, because that is dangerous," refer back to your previous arguments about what to do in dangerous situations.
Let me talk a little about Exodus 22:2-3. The principle I was trying to get across is that God allows and justifies the use of force (violence), even to death. He never states that you should even allow a thief to steal, much less murder your children in front of you. Now in this example of a thief, at night if you are using force (violence) to repel him and he dies, you are given "the benefit of the doubt." An accident. But in the daylight, not only could you respond with force (violence) better, even if you let him go altogether you can identify him later and justice can presumably be meted out. But in any case stealing, alone, is not justification for intentionally killing someone. But the use of force (violence) to repel evil clearly is, even to the point of death sometimes. That's the point of Exodus 22:2-3.
The general principle of using force (violence) to repel force (violence) is allowed, and I would argue your responsibility. You must be under the assumption that I and others carry firearms just hoping someone offends us so we can kill them. That is not the case. I hope I never have to draw mine. And I would never shoot someone who is stealing my iPod. But I would shoot to stop someone who was trying to kill my daughter, or someone I didn't even know in my presence (7-11, parking lot, whatever). The point is to stop evil, not go around killing people. A gun isn't the answer for someone stealing from you (in America now). It might be appropriate for someone trying to kill you or those around you.
… in the meantime, that does not mean we are to abandon our families and friends and leave them to the wolves of society, As long as we are alive we have responsibilities. One is to spread the gospel. I believe another is to protect our loved ones and people around us. I believe this is Biblical. I do not believe Jesus would have us sit idly by and watch as our daughters are raped and murdered.
I do not believe Jesus taught pacifism throughout the OT or NT. Jesus always taught opposition to the wicked, whether he was with us in word or flesh.
Yes, I believe Christians should carry a firearm if they wish, even in church. I think we have a Biblical responsibility to at least protect our loved ones and those around us. God seems to uses human agency. That is, God provides our food, yes, but we don't sit at home and watch Oprah, waiting for manna from heaven to drop in front of our big, flat-screen TV (and I don't even have a big, flat-screen TV). God expects me to work for which I get a paycheck whereby I can pay the store who bought the bread from a baker who bought grain from a farmer who used a tractor to till and harvest the field which God caused to grow through sun and rain and the marvels of life. God could directly give us the food, but he doesn't. He could even nourish us directly into the blood stream, but He delights to use us as tools to accomplish His will of providing for us.
We could all refuse the care of physicians and the wonders of modern medicine, saying God will keep us well, but it doesn't work that way. We live in a fallen world. We avail ourselves of doctors and medicine when needed.
It seems that the same is true of self-defense as well, as backed up by scripture as I understand it. Here are some comments I wrote after an article appeared in a Christian site about carrying firearms. They are a collection of some of what I wrote, so they may seem a bit disjoint standing on their own here, but I trust you'll follow along easily. My remarks about violence are in response to someone who asserted Christians are never to use violence. I also left out my comments/questions to another about Christians being in the military or law enforcement (i.e., should Christians carry a firearm and kill people simply because their boss tells them it's okay? It's their job to defend themselves with deadly force if necessary, but it's not our job to defend ourselves with deadly force if necessary? Or should Christians not be a part of government?)
+++++
There is nothing in the Bible that teaches pacifism in the face of evil for all believers. I would address one assertion made that all missionaries or those working abroad (or at home) do not defend themselves. That is simply not the case. You should read about the St. James Church Massacre in Africa. The missionary and pastor Charl Van Wyk pulled his own gun and fired back at the attackers, saving untold lives. The assertion that people "working for God" always go about unarmed or unprotected by escorts who are armed is simply not the case.
Even here in the US many churches, particularly large ones, have armed security. And on occasion they have had to use it. To say their considered Biblical positions are wrong and that they are simply not trusting God would, I think, be inaccurate.
"If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." 1 Tim 5:8
Obviously you cannot only provide your family with housing and food, but with spiritual guidance, love, and protection as well. We are not to allow wicked to flourish.
"Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked." Prov 25:26
The Bible clearly distinguishes the difference between the duties of the government and the duties of the individual. Governments have the responsibility of the administration of justice. The individual has the responsibility of self-defense, of protecting their lives and the lives of their loved ones from attackers. Both the Old and New Testaments teach individual self-defense.
If a thief breaks in and is killed by the homeowner, he is not guilty of murder. Ex 22:2-3
Remember, Jesus *is* The Word, and The Word is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Heb 13:8 I am the Lord, I do not change. Mal 3:6 All scripture (including the OT) is profitable for doctrine... 2 Tim 3:16
We've already talked about Luke 22:36 and Matt 26:52-54. While Christ told Peter to put away his sword, he clearly did not tell him to get rid of it forever. That would have contradicted what he had told the disciples only hours before. His sword was to protect his own life from danger. It was not needed to protect Jesus, the Creator of the Universe.
Jesus summarized all the laws of the Bible into two: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. He then gave the illustration of the Good Samaritan, who took care of a victim. If you had the opportunity to save the life of an innocent victim by shooting an attacker, should you instead turn the other cheek? The Bible speaks of no right to allow innocents to be murdered, but it does speak of responsibilities in the face of an attack as providers and neighbors.
God clearly showed us in the OT the relationship between righteousness and self-defense. When the people left God in the time of the judges, and later when they rebelled and demanded a king, it resulted in disarmament and oppression.
There may be some times when it is appropriate not to be armed, such as suffering for the gospel. If you are evangelizing, perhaps you would choose not to be strapped. But then again, I think those would be times when you alone are in danger.
To those who say fighting back—self-defense—is not what God would have us do, do you also stop to help others out on the side of the road when they are in trouble? Give a ride to those whose cars have broken down? Clearly the parable of the Good Samaritan teaches that we should help others in distress. If you say, "no, because that is dangerous," refer back to your previous arguments about what to do in dangerous situations.
Let me talk a little about Exodus 22:2-3. The principle I was trying to get across is that God allows and justifies the use of force (violence), even to death. He never states that you should even allow a thief to steal, much less murder your children in front of you. Now in this example of a thief, at night if you are using force (violence) to repel him and he dies, you are given "the benefit of the doubt." An accident. But in the daylight, not only could you respond with force (violence) better, even if you let him go altogether you can identify him later and justice can presumably be meted out. But in any case stealing, alone, is not justification for intentionally killing someone. But the use of force (violence) to repel evil clearly is, even to the point of death sometimes. That's the point of Exodus 22:2-3.
The general principle of using force (violence) to repel force (violence) is allowed, and I would argue your responsibility. You must be under the assumption that I and others carry firearms just hoping someone offends us so we can kill them. That is not the case. I hope I never have to draw mine. And I would never shoot someone who is stealing my iPod. But I would shoot to stop someone who was trying to kill my daughter, or someone I didn't even know in my presence (7-11, parking lot, whatever). The point is to stop evil, not go around killing people. A gun isn't the answer for someone stealing from you (in America now). It might be appropriate for someone trying to kill you or those around you.
… in the meantime, that does not mean we are to abandon our families and friends and leave them to the wolves of society, As long as we are alive we have responsibilities. One is to spread the gospel. I believe another is to protect our loved ones and people around us. I believe this is Biblical. I do not believe Jesus would have us sit idly by and watch as our daughters are raped and murdered.
I do not believe Jesus taught pacifism throughout the OT or NT. Jesus always taught opposition to the wicked, whether he was with us in word or flesh.
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45acpForMe
Newbie
John 15:12-13
[SUP]12[/SUP] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
[SUP]13[/SUP] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Out of love for each other we help each other even if it means laying down our life for them.
Why carry at church? I love my family more than my own life. I hate evil. Nuff said.
[SUP]12[/SUP] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
[SUP]13[/SUP] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Out of love for each other we help each other even if it means laying down our life for them.
Why carry at church? I love my family more than my own life. I hate evil. Nuff said.
Bravo!! you too Griffin. I always thought about that but never could put it into words,quite simple really.
OC for ME
Regular Member
Back-handed swipe at churches? At religion? At the believers?I think you just made an excellent argument for NOT attending that church. That is unless you are going to admit that churches only care about money and not about anything else.
Jack House
Regular Member
An observation more like. You gave the impression that your preacher didn't want you carrying in their church, that is until you threatened to take your money elsewhere. At this point, you stated that your preacher recanted. This basically means that your preacher sold out his flock for pittance.
His concerns may have been misplaced, but his reason for changing the policy, at least for you, completely nullifies that. Since he'd still have the concerns, but saw green and stopped caring.
Is that really the kind of church you want to attend?
His concerns may have been misplaced, but his reason for changing the policy, at least for you, completely nullifies that. Since he'd still have the concerns, but saw green and stopped caring.
Is that really the kind of church you want to attend?
Steeler-gal
Regular Member
Well said.
I CC at church and found out recently that at least 3 others are also CCing. I don't know why they CC but I CC because I know a few people who are uncomfortable about guns so out of respect I CC. Plus sometimes the costume of the day is more accommodating for CC on Sunday's.
I also wouldn't attend a church if my pastor said we could OC as long as we kept tithing, but that's a topic for another thread I believe.