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Fire Misssion


Regular Member
Oct 29, 2008
Montgomery, Alabama, USA
Over 61% of those responding said, "Yes, always." Have we actually sunk that low in this country that we are so willing to give up our rights?

Dear God, I have, indeed, lived too long to have to see this great nation sink to these depths.


Founder's Club Member
Nov 15, 2006
Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP Dear God, I have, indeed, lived too long to have to see this great nation sink to these depths.

I used to worry about this too. Then I read up on some of the Founders and their shenanigans early in this country's history.

I came to realize that a lot of what we "think" is America, is just so much fluff, spin, and patriotic illusion.

For example, shortly after the Framing, the Federalists in Congress passed the Alien and Sedition Acts, clear violations of the First Amendment. These were Federalists mind you, some the very men who ratified the Constitution.

Hamilton was clearly a monarchist as was John Adams. There were enough others to worry Jefferson when he was Washington's Secretary of State.

Even Jefferson was not above a few unconstitutional things, like the Louisiana Purchase (no presidential authority). Jefferson bent some rules badly in pursuing Aaron Burr for Burr's alleged plan and actions to break off the western area and found a new country.

It all comes down to personal commitment to liberty, I think. And, that has varied from person to person throughout our history. Given a vaccum from lack of education on the subject, I can easily imagine people steering toward statism out of a desire for personal safety. If desire for personal safety outweighing liberty was less common, Ben Franklin wouldn't have bothered to make his remark on the subject.

So, my "illusion" has been deflated a good bit. I just work on educating people as much as I can afford the time. Happily, many "get it" when you lay something out for them. For example, all the police nonsense about checking a license, registration, and even asking for a consent search---just because you had a tail-light out. Or, digital drivers license photos and facial recognition technology having nothing to do with proving to a police officer you are licensed to drive a car. People do seem to "get it" when you point it out to them.

And, don't forget the Tea Party movement. While I disagree with some of their principles, and worry that they'll be co-opted by Republicrats, I'm encouraged to see so many people saying, "Enough, goddamit!"
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Regular Member
Mar 18, 2010
University Place, Washington, USA


Regular Member
Sep 8, 2010
The question was worded improperly.

It should have asked if police should have the right to DEMAND ID from someone who is open carrying.

The percentages would change drastically.