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GFSZ and long guns.

oc4ever

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The subject of longuns and GFSZ has come up before, but it is still unsettled in my mind. There seems to be an exemption to 629.6 for shotguns and rifles, but it is not clearly spelled out in 629.6. Can anybody clearly explain the why you can or can not carry a shotgun either loaded(shells in the magazine) but not chambered, or unloaded. I know my father kept a shotgun under the seat of his various trucks for 30 years with a full magazine, unchambered. Under the below law, he seemed to be in compliance.

The Fish and Game Code section 2006 :

It is unlawful to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun in any
vehicle or conveyance or its attachments which is standing on or
along or is being driven on or along any public highway or other way
open to the public.
A rifle or shotgun shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes
of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in the
firing chamber but not when the only cartridges or shells are in the
magazine.
The provisions of this section shall not apply to peace officers
or members of the armed forces of this State or the United States,
while on duty or going to or returning from duty.




The biggest problem I see are the numerous training bulletins from the various LEO agencies that have been publicly posted on calopencarry.org . None of these memos spell out the differences between long guns and concealed firearms regarding school zones. They just mention the 1000 foot zone apply to firearms.
This seems to be another unclear set of laws that can cause unknowing citizens to
Visit the local jail facility jail and lose possession of their weapon.
 

wewd

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626.9 makes an exemption for long guns being transported. You are free to interpret "transport" any way you like, since the legislators declined to do so. It may take a criminal case to determine just what "transport" means in the context of 626.9.

I don't know why you are quoting the Fish & Game Code. Those laws only apply while actually fishing or hunting. The law you are looking for is in the Penal Code, section 12031.

Code:
(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.
12031(g) has been further interpreted in People v. Clark that a firearm is deemed to be loaded only when a cartridge is in a position from which it could be fired, or through simple manipulation of the firearm's action, be made ready to fire. In other words, if there is an unexpended cartridge in the chamber and/or in the magazine attached to the weapon, it is loaded.

The definition of "loaded" as defined in the Fish and Game Code is not congruous with the Penal Code. The only time the F&GC definition is used over the PC definition is for violations of the F&GC such as placing a loaded weapon on a motor vehicle. That would be a violation of the Fish & Game Code if there were an unexpended cartridge in the chamber but not in the magazine.
 

oc4ever

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Well WEWD, I agree with you part of the way. 12031 applies to incorporated cities and prohibited areas of counties. It does not apply to everywhere and in all circumstances in California. There are county areas where loaded weapons shotguns/long guns would be legal, and the F&G 2006 section is the sole prohibition. This section does not just apply to hunters only, but to everybody in all circumstances, so you are wrong about that. LEO's do use this section in non-hunting loaded firearm violations.

As an example I am talking about, would be in a county area where you pass by a school zone in a vehicle with a shotgun(unchambered-full magazine) . Can you explain if you still believe statement of 12031 still applies or 629.6 applies? Another example would be with a shotgun "Clark-ized" with the shells attached, but not in the gun.

Does anyone have a map(s)of the prohibited areas of the counties in Southern California?
 

camsoup

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Red Bluff, California, USA
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oc4ever wrote:
the F&G 2006 section is the sole prohibition. This section does not just apply to hunters only, but to everybody in all circumstances, so you are wrong about that.
Since when does the fish and game code apply to all circumstances?
 

bigtoe416

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wewd wrote:
I don't know why you are quoting the Fish & Game Code. Those laws only apply while actually fishing or hunting.
I know this seems logical, but is there a section in the F&GC which states this?
 

oc4ever

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Camsoup,
The Fish and Game Code section 2006 applies to rifles and shotguns (not handguns)throughout California on public highways in all circumstances. Kindly provide me any law showing that it does not apply as stated. Good Luck.
 

Rusty

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San Jose, California, USA
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626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the
Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person
knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in
paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written
permission of the school district superintendent, his or her
designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as
specified in subdivision (f).
(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm
under any of the following circumstances:
(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private
property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private
property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the
firearm is otherwise lawful.
(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked
container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle.
This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person
, in
accordance with state law.
Then from Section (e):
(2) "Firearm" has the same meaning as that term is given in Section 12001.
Then if we look at 12001
(b) As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel, a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.
626.9 seems deliberately confusing.

It would seem 626.9 should say:

Any person who possesses a firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person
in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know,
is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e),
unless it is with the written permission of the school district
superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority,
shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).


Then there would be no need for this language:
This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in accordance with state law.
 

Theseus

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626.9 prohibits and controls ALL firearms.

Longarms are exempt from 626.9 possession prohibition provided that:

1. You are "transporting" the longarm and
2. You are in compliance with all other state laws in your manner of transport. (not loaded where prohibited, not using it in the commission of a crime, etc.)

or

3. It is in a fully enclosed locked container.

626.9 doesn't control loaded or not, only 12031 does. 626.9 does however make it an enhancement if you are either concealed (12025 violation) or loaded (12031 violation).
 

oc4ever

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Theseus,
Thanks for the clear explanation. So a "Clark-ized"(attached rounds but not in magazine) shotgun driving past a school zone in an incorporated city would be legal, as well as a magazine loaded unchambered shotgun in a non prohibited county area school zone(basically out in the rural areas ).

Again, the LEO's training bulletins from the various agencies don't cover this subject very well, and tend to infer any firearms are prohibited within 1000 feet of a school.

Wish there was a map of the prohibited county areas available to review. The explanations in the various county codes are not easily identifiable regarding landmarks.
 

Gundude

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Theseus wrote:
626.9 prohibits and controls ALL firearms.

Longarms are exempt from 626.9 possession prohibition provided that:

1. You are "transporting" the longarm and
2. You are in compliance with all other state laws in your manner of transport. (not loaded where prohibited, not using it in the commission of a crime, etc.)

or

3. It is in a fully enclosed locked container.

626.9 doesn't control loaded or not, only 12031 does. 626.9 does however make it an enhancement if you are either concealed (12025 violation) or loaded (12031 violation).
I think "transporting" has to do with frieght companies delivering guns. Thats why the feds couldn't do a GFSZ. Their jurisdiction would only be involved with interstate commerce,and anyGFSZban would interfere with economics of a state.How would a truck driver from the other side of a state be expected to know where all the schools are. That wouldn't be a violation.

Not sure about driving by a school with an unloadedrifle or shotgun in a gun rack in the back window of your truck. That would be covered by state law.
 

Theseus

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Gundude wrote:
Theseus wrote:
626.9 prohibits and controls ALL firearms.

Longarms are exempt from 626.9 possession prohibition provided that:

1. You are "transporting" the longarm and
2. You are in compliance with all other state laws in your manner of transport. (not loaded where prohibited, not using it in the commission of a crime, etc.)

or

3. It is in a fully enclosed locked container.

626.9 doesn't control loaded or not, only 12031 does. 626.9 does however make it an enhancement if you are either concealed (12025 violation) or loaded (12031 violation).
I think "transporting" has to do with frieght companies delivering guns. Thats why the feds couldn't do a GFSZ. Their jurisdiction would only be involved with interstate commerce,and anyGFSZban would interfere with economics of a state.How would a truck driver from the other side of a state be expected to know where all the schools are. That wouldn't be a violation.

Not sure about driving by a school with an unloadedrifle or shotgun in a gun rack in the back window of your truck. That would be covered by state law.
For the Fed GFSZ to take effect the prosecution has to prove that one "knowingly possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce"

This means that unless you are selling the firearm in a GFSZ you are exempt from the Fed law.

But remember, IANAL.
 

CA_Libertarian

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Jul 18, 2007
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Stanislaus County, California, USA
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Gundude wrote:
I think "transporting" has to do with frieght companies delivering guns. Thats why the feds couldn't do a GFSZ. Their jurisdiction would only be involved with interstate commerce,and anyGFSZban would interfere with economics of a state.How would a truck driver from the other side of a state be expected to know where all the schools are. That wouldn't be a violation.
Do you have any citation to support this hypothesis? I've seen no evidence in my research that indicates this is the intent of the legislature.

Also, keep in mind that "carry" and "transport" are synonymous, per the court in People v Overtuf.

I think a prosecutor would be hard-pressed to maintain a conviction on appeal if one were charged under 626.9 with a exempted firearm. (Though I don't want to be a test case... yet.)
 

inbox485

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Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
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oc4ever wrote:
The subject of longuns and GFSZ has come up before, but it is still unsettled in my mind. There seems to be an exemption to 629.6 for shotguns and rifles, but it is not clearly spelled out in 629.6. Can anybody clearly explain the why you can or can not carry a shotgun either loaded(shells in the magazine) but not chambered, or unloaded. I know my father kept a shotgun under the seat of his various trucks for 30 years with a full magazine, unchambered. Under the below law, he seemed to be in compliance.

The Fish and Game Code section 2006 :

It is unlawful to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun in any
vehicle or conveyance or its attachments which is standing on or
along or is being driven on or along any public highway or other way
open to the public.
   A rifle or shotgun shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes
of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in the
firing chamber but not when the only cartridges or shells are in the
magazine.
   The provisions of this section shall not apply to peace officers
or members of the armed forces of this State or the United States,
while on duty or going to or returning from duty.




The biggest problem I see are the numerous  training bulletins from the various LEO agencies that have been publicly posted on calopencarry.org . None of these memos  spell out the differences between long guns and concealed firearms regarding school zones. They just mention the 1000 foot zone apply to firearms.
This seems to be another unclear set of laws that can cause unknowing citizens to
Visit the local jail facility jail and lose possession of their weapon.
The F&G code isn't helpful in very many circumstances because in most circumstances the F&GC is superseded by other more restrictive laws. The loaded definition in F&GC 2006 only refers to that section unless another statute explicitly calls it out or if another statute were to contain no definition and the legislative analysis pointed to that definition rather than other more restrictive definitions.

To briefly recap 12031: For the areas it governs (separate discussion entirely), it prohibits carrying a loaded firearm. Loaded is defined therein and that definition is settled case law in People v Clark. A loaded magazine in the magazine well is loaded even if the chamber is empty. You wouldn't have violated the F&GC but you will have violated the PC.

If you were somewhere where 12031 did not apply even if you were in a school zone, you may be correct in relying on F&GC 2006 in that 626.9 "does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in accordance with state law." But keep in mind that the F&GC definition will only apply to rifles and shotguns.

So unless your father lived in unincorporated, non prohibited areas and never ventured into either an incorporated or prohibited area, he was in habitual violation of 12031.
 

oc4ever

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He was a farmer out in unicorporated rural (Imperial County)California. He worked by himself by the US border, sometimes at night, and I am glad he had a guns with him. He kept a 30-30 winchester rifle and a pump shotgun. He never had any law enforcement run-ins his whole life, but did chase illegals stealing farm equipment off the farm with the shotgun on many occasions. Remember , there was no way to call for help before cell phones out in the sticks. He never called the sheriff afterwards either, just handled his own problems as he saw fit. Some crooks left with birdshot as a present for their troubles. When the 30-30 came out, he was meaning business!! I only saw that one time when a group of men 6-8 men on foot approached us at night on our property. They decided to leave in a hurry without saying goodbye, they were not the friendiest looking folks, actually they looked kind of scrubby and desperate.

He was an elderly man just trying to protect himself, his farm, and his family members. No cops ever bothered him when he was stopped for traffic violations. This is what true self protection of life and property with a gun is about.
 

inbox485

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oc4ever wrote:
He was a farmer out in unicorporated rural (Imperial County)California. He worked by himself by the US border, sometimes at night, and I am glad he had a guns with him. He kept a 30-30 winchester rifle and a pump shotgun. He never had any law enforcement run-ins his whole life, but did chase illegals stealing farm equipment off the farm with the shotgun on many occasions. Remember , there was no way to call for help before cell phones out in the sticks. He never called the sheriff afterwards either, just handled his own problems as he saw fit. Some crooks left with birdshot as a present for their troubles. When the 30-30 came out, he was meaning business!! I only saw that one time when a group of men 6-8 men on foot approached us at night on our property. They decided to leave in a hurry without saying goodbye, they were not the friendiest looking folks, actually they looked kind of scrubby and desperate.

He was an elderly man just trying to protect himself, his farm, and his family members. No cops ever bothered him when he was stopped for traffic violations. This is what true self protection of life and property with a gun is about.
I'm not saying he would've or should've been harrased. I'm just pointing out that in all likelyness he did violate the statute, and today's generation of cops as a whole are not of the same caliber as the ones your father dealt with. If you were to do the exact same things your father did, today's legal system would eat you for breakfast, vomit you out, come back to eat you for lunch, and then do the same for dinner. By morning, you'd be poop.
 

oc4ever

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Even today, a loaded long gun in a rural county is not going to result in a trip to jail. Possibly something gung ho city cop night make a big deal and a Citation/fine/loss weapon ...maybe...These are all misdemeanors. Out in unincorporated border areas,no way is He going to be bothered. He had more than 5 trucks stolen by illegals and most were dropped off/recovered in central California. They just stole them as transportation to get work for farming jobs. I understand your point regarding 12031 in the city, but he carried much of the time before that law even existed, and never changed his self defense habits. Anyways he died a free-unrobbed-never arrrested citizen. I believe most LEO's tend not to screw with elderly people unless the violation is outragious. Most rural county LEOs are kick back towards guns if you are not a gang menber or prohibited type person.
 
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