• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

GMU Broadside: Concealed Carry Would Only Make Things Worse

fairfax1

Newbie
Joined
Oct 3, 2006
Messages
245
Location
Fairfax, Virginia, USA
imported post

Two articles in the GMU student newspaper:

http://broadsideonline.com/opinion.html
[Thumbs Up] to the George Mason University Board of Visitors for strengthening the Mason policy prohibiting weapons on campus. In addition to prohibiting students, faculty and staff from bringing any weapons onto campus, it prevents visitors from bringing weapons into University buildings or to University-sponsored events. It is wonderful to see the BOV react to the Virginia Tech tragedy by strengthening the ban against weapons of all types on campus, as opposed to cowering before a vocal minority intent on using a human tragedy to advance their own ideological agenda.


http://broadsideonline.com/08-27-2007/nogunsoncampus.html
EDITORIAL
No Guns on Campus
Concealed Carry Would Only Make Things Worse

Over the course of the past several months, a debate has erupted over the proper place of handguns and other weapons within the University community. Dueling Facebook groups supporting and opposing the right of students, faculty and staff to carry concealed weapons on campus sprang up and the national media paid close attention to the issue, featuring Andrew Dysart and his GMU Students for Concealed Carry many times in a wide variety of outlets. Yet despite the massive amounts of publicity that the push to allow guns on campus has generated, the fact remains that such a move would not be in the best interests of George Mason University’s students, faculty or staff.

Dysart is the Mason campus leader for a larger group called Students for Concealed Carry on Campus which states in its mission statement that “After such tragedies as Columbine and Virginia Tech, it is abundantly clear that the only way to stop mass murderers is to have responsible citizens in the classroom and on campuses able to carry their licensed handguns.”
Such logic is incorrect. The invocation of Columbine is a misleading emotional appeal designed to overstate the value policies such as theirs could even theoretically carry. The policies they propose would only allow people with a concealed carry permit to carry guns on campus. In most states such people must be 21 years old.

Massacres like the Virginia Tech tragedy are extremely rare. The mere fact that the media presents each one as though it were part of an epidemic does not mean there actually is an epidemic. Furthermore, there are already “responsible citizens in the classroom and on campuses” who are charged with protecting the safety of people on campus–the police.

“Gun-free zones, such as GMU and VT, just don’t work,” contends Dysart. “Criminals that are set on committing evil acts will not follow the laws and rules of society. VT showed us that college campuses are not really as safe as we have been led to believe.”

Such claims are not borne out by reality. In fact, the opposite is true. College campuses are the best American examples of why gun control works.

By most standards, college campuses should be frequent targets of violent crimes and murders. There are large numbers of young people living together, having sex, and dating one another under stressful conditions, in an environment with frequent alcohol and drug use. All of those are correlated with higher crime and higher violent crime. However, according to FBI’s Crime in the United States report in the decade between 1995 and 2005, the most recent year for which data is available, Virginia’s college campuses saw only three murders and one gun murder.
It strains the imagination to think that if more guns were allowed on campuses the number of murders would decrease.

The idea that an increase in guns would result in a decrease in murders is a ludicrous one. It is not a realistic claim either; the available statistics from 1995 to 2004 prove that the policies that are in place work. While Virginia state murders ranged from 7.5 to 5.2 murders per 100,000, state campuses only went as high as .5 per 100,000. The facts don’t square with Dysart’s claim that only guns can save us.
Virginia Tech was a tragedy, but it was also an anomaly. To use that disaster as an excuse to arm students and kill off a successful policy would almost certainly cost lives, rather than save them.
 

SIGguy229

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
349
Location
Stafford, VA, , Afghanistan
imported post

There are large numbers of young people living together, having sex, and dating one another under stressful conditions



I guess these people have never been to Iraq or Afghanistan---there are 18 year olds and older carrying weapons...but you don't hear about mass shootings on base. But apparently, this article endorses drugs and alcohol use....



Forget that responsible people who have CHPs aren't going out and doing drugs and drinking to excess...fools


I guess they minimize rapes, assaults, robberies on campus.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,331
Location
Valhalla
imported post

"In addition to prohibiting students, faculty and staff from bringing any weapons onto campus, it prevents visitors from bringing weapons into University buildings or to University-sponsored events."

This does absolutely NOTHING to prevent anything! Remember the truism that criminals do not obey laws and rules? Only the law abiding are penalized - boy am I tired of saying that. Many, many people have been carrying on college campuses legally, myself included, without the dire consequences you predict. Only the adult students and employees were controlled with threat of expulsion or firing.

Your facts and figures are selective and flawed and do not merit response. They do suit your purpose though don't they. College campuses and the surrounding communities are not the idylic, safe environments you suggest. Universities/colleges generally radically under report serious crime. Rapes, armed robberies, muggings and the like occur far too often.

You turn the other cheek if your daughter or son becomes a victim. I will not.

Yata hey
 

TEX1N

Regular Member
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
842
Location
Northern VA, Virginia, USA
imported post

Grapeshot wrote:
This does absolutely NOTHING to prevent anything! Remember the truism that criminals do not obey laws and rules? Only the law abiding are penalized - boy am I tired of saying that. Many, many people have been carrying on college campuses legally, myself included, without the dire consequences you predict. Only the adult students and employees were controlled with threat of expulsion or firing.
Exactly!

Broadside is suppose to be running an article on GMU-SCC. We will have to see how that comes out.

Here is the contact page for Broadside, if anyone wants to send a letter to the editor:
http://broadsideonline.com/about.html
 

TEX1N

Regular Member
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
842
Location
Northern VA, Virginia, USA
imported post

fairfax1 wrote:
Two articles in the GMU student newspaper:

http://broadsideonline.com/opinion.html
[Thumbs Up] to the George Mason University Board of Visitors for strengthening the Mason policy prohibiting weapons on campus. In addition to prohibiting students, faculty and staff from bringing any weapons onto campus, it prevents visitors from bringing weapons into University buildings or to University-sponsored events. It is wonderful to see the BOV react to the Virginia Tech tragedy by strengthening the ban against weapons of all types on campus, as opposed to cowering before a vocal minority intent on using a human tragedy to advance their own ideological agenda.
Anyone have a better link to this article? The above link is to the Broadside opinion page, not the listed article...
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,278
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
imported post

If GMU has decided that a student's life isn't worthdefending in the moment of attack, maybeGMU should be asked when:

Will they make a policy making it mandatory that female students arenot allowed to turn their head if a male student slaps them?

Will they make a policy requiring female students to submit to rape?

Will they make a policy requiring students to submit to murder? Oh, they already made that one.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,331
Location
Valhalla
imported post

There will be no use of force against students or staff. No forcing them to do something against their will and no physical attacks causing them injury or death. These are all against the law and the rules of the university forbide these outrages; therefore, no one needs a weapon to defend themselves - in fact the university forbides this too - even for those that the state says, through preemption, have the right.
:banghead:

Never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.” John Donne

Yata hey

 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,331
Location
Valhalla
imported post

PavePusher wrote:
At least oneemployee ofGMU has some guts:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57259

His particular call to action may be strong, but it is certainly understandable. I wonder how this will be viewed by his employers?

For the record, I agree with him completly.

(Found on Thursday's keepandbeararms.com)
The link you posted is NOT related to GMU but rather to minority crime.
Do you have the correct link?
Yata hey
 

PavePusher

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
1,096
Location
Tucson, Arizona, USA
imported post

Grapeshot wrote:
PavePusher wrote:
At least oneemployee ofGMU has some guts:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57259

His particular call to action may be strong, but it is certainly understandable. I wonder how this will be viewed by his employers?

For the record, I agree with him completly.

(Found on Thursday's keepandbeararms.com)
The link you posted is NOT related to GMU but rather to minority crime.
Do you have the correct link?
Yata hey

Err, it says at the bottom: "Walter E. Williams, Ph.D., is the John M. Olin Distinguished Professor of Economics at George Mason University in Fairfax, Va." Ifthat doesn't make this GMU related, I'll happilytake it down...
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,331
Location
Valhalla
imported post

My apologies sir, I did not read down far enough....too hasty or too tired.

Many of his remarks are indeed strong and true.

Yata hey
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,331
Location
Valhalla
imported post

kparker wrote:
Not to deny that Professor Williams has guts, but I suspect he probably also has tenure.
Just hope that they don't move his office to a basement lavatory. :shock:

Yata hey
 

Ausdog

New member
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Messages
7
Location
Sterling, VA, ,
imported post

So the question is, is this legal? Doesstate preemption allow for a "public university"to enact this policy? Is there another statute or charter that allows them to makesuch policy?Does this prevent a CHP parent fromgoing tothe administration officeor cafeteria with their child even though preemption should allow it?How does theuniversity enforce this? If my wife and I were to go to the records office to gethertranscripts/diploma, could theyask me to leave and if I politely asserted my right to stay, arrest me or issue a summons?

NVCC has a very similiar and inaccurate policy on weapons. I didn't realize LEOs had to conceal carry their firearms. The student guide also says that you can't have them in yourcar, which means to me, not on campus (preemption?)


Firearms/Weapons Policy

Firearms and dangerous weapons of any type are NOT PERMITTED on or in campus facilities, except when carried by bona fide law enforcement officers in their official capacities. Intentional use, possession, or sale of firearms or other dangerous weapons is strictly forbidden and is a violation of college policy as stated in the Student Handbook and Employee Handbook.


http://www.nvcc.edu/depts/CollegeSafety/policies.htm

FIREARMS AND OTHER DANGEROUS WEAPONS


Bringing firearms and other dangerous weapons onto campus is prohibited. It is a violation of the rules to carry weapons or to leave them in a car parked on the campus. The only exception applies to duly sworn Commonwealth of Virginia police officers. While civilian-attired police officers have the authority to carry firearms, they must do so by keeping them concealed so as not to alarm others.
http://www.nvcc.edu/resources/stuhandbook/studenthb2005.pdf
 

TEX1N

Regular Member
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
842
Location
Northern VA, Virginia, USA
imported post

Ausdog wrote:
So the question is, is this legal? Doesstate preemption allow for a "public university"to enact this policy? Is there another statute or charter that allows them to makesuch policy?Does this prevent a CHP parent fromgoing tothe administration officeor cafeteria with their child even though preemption should allow it?How does theuniversity enforce this? If my wife and I were to go to the records office to gethertranscripts/diploma, could theyask me to leave and if I politely asserted my right to stay, arrest me or issue a summons?

I discuss this in detail here:
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=4294&forum_id=54

And here:
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=4302&forum_id=64

Hopefully that will answer your questions.



 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,331
Location
Valhalla
imported post

Ausdog wrote:
So the question is, is this legal? Doesstate preemption allow for a "public university"to enact this policy? Is there another statute or charter that allows them to makesuch policy?Does this prevent a CHP parent fromgoing tothe administration officeor cafeteria with their child even though preemption should allow it?How does theuniversity enforce this? If my wife and I were to go to the records office to gethertranscripts/diploma, could theyask me to leave and if I politely asserted my right to stay, arrest me or issue a summons?

My first reaction is that state preemption trumps the university rules - they are not laws - but as in other similar circumstances, it may have to be settled in court. The sad part of all of this is that the university officials may well know that they are promoting fiction as fact. Perhaps one of the BGs (Big guns) from VCDL needs to make some inquiries. I don't think that the school will give a John Doe the time of day correctly.

Yata hey
 
Top