Idea from VCDL pres.

[papa bear]

hey just got this on the VCDL alert. i thought he had a good point. i might even come to MD if y'all was to do it.


Today I attended the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals proceedings on the legality of Maryland's "May-Issue" CHP law.

Bottom line: I'm damned glad I don't have to put up with Maryland's Mickey-Mouse anti-liberty government.

Attorney Alan Gura presented his argument to a three-judge panel that the Maryland CHP law violates the 2nd Amendment because there is no way for a citizen to legally carry a handgun for self-defense outside a home or business without having to prove some kind of need (good and sufficient reason).

The Maryland lawyer spouted all the old, worn out gun-control mantras, as to why the state needs to tightly control carry of evil handguns. He said that "public safety" was more important than any individual right conferred by the Second Amendment. I flashed back to the 1980s as he was speaking.

Maryland claimed that D.C. v Heller said that the Second Amendment only applies to a person having a gun in their RESIDENCE, thus their CHP law was legal since it only controlled carry OUTSIDE the home. That, of course, was pure baloney. The Heller and McDonald rulings never said that the Second Amendment does not apply outside a residence. The Supreme Court wasn't asked to answer the question about outside the home carry and, therefore, didn't.

Judge Davis brought up an idea: what if open carry was allowed without a permit? (In Maryland you can't open or conceal carry a handgun without a permit.) Basically, this would be closer to Virginia, but with a "may-issue" concealed carry permit.

The Maryland lawyer then brought up that shotguns and rifles could be carried outside the home, just not handguns. (I suggest that Maryland Shall Issue might want to have a "shotgun picnic," where the attendees all have shotguns slung on their backs. They should invite the press and say, "This is silly, but based on Maryland law this is the only legal option for regular citizens to carry a gun for self-defense. Carrying a handgun discreetly is what we want to be able to do, just like other gun owners do in the rest of the country. Maryland makes that either impossible or impractical, ignoring the Second Amendment.")

One judge asked about only allowing revolvers to be carried and not semi-automatic pistols, since semi-automatic handguns didn't exist when the Second Amendment was written. Since the judge wasn't writing with a quill pen and didn't come to work on a horse, he's obviously a hypocrite.

Another judge tried to imply that the Court didn't have authority over this case, but I think Alan quashed that idea. We'll see.

How will the panel vote? No way of knowing. We should have some kind of opinion in a few months.

 

[Citizen]

That revolver judge is a bit off base with his history, too. Neither did revolvers exist at the Founding.

I like the long arm picnic idea. Just needs to be thoroughly reviewed for legality. A lawyer's passing comment in court doesn't make it true that long arm OC is legal in MD.

 

[papa bear]

Good, point is it?

 

[627PCFan]

First off, this would be viewed as extremism by the general public and I think would be counter-productive. That being said you would need a MASS of OC'ers of long guns as to overwhelm police and arrests would be made, guns would be seized regardless. Trumped up charges would be abound(disturbing the peace..eg contempt of cop. I cant see it ending well in any shape or form. I worry about repercussions like Cali with the banning of OC (unloaded) in reponse. Save it for if the courts ruling is overturned.

 

[papa bear]

First off, this would be viewed as extremism by the general public and I think would be counter-productive. That being said you would need a MASS of OC'ers of long guns as to overwhelm police and arrests would be made, guns would be seized regardless. Trumped up charges would be abound(disturbing the peace..eg contempt of cop. I cant see it ending well in any shape or form. I worry about repercussions like Cali with the banning of OC (unloaded) in reponse. Save it for if the courts ruling is overturned.

may be. do you know if it illegal in MD?

as far as weather or not it would be ineffectual. i think i would match anything in VA with MD

 

[davidmcbeth]

In Illinois, where any carry is prohibited for any reason, the federal judge , in the Madigan v. Moore case, asked "'what does 'bear' mean, it certainly does not mean inside your house, right? It must mean something more..to carry outside the property" (I'm paraphrasing here but its accurate) .. and the 300 yr old judge mentions his uncle in NYC who carried even when it was against the law because of the neighborhood.

 

[Dreamer]

Obviously the judge making these remarks is

1) an idiot,

2) historically illiterate, and

3) has NO idea how MSP and the MD AG apply the law in our state with regards to lawful carry.

Let me expound upon this.

First off, the revolver was invented by Elisha Collier in 1814, a good 23 years AFTER the Billof Rights was ratified into law.

Second, Open carry is ALREADY legal in MD if you have a MD issued permit. The MD permit is NOT a "concealed carry" permit, it is a "Permit to Carry a Handgun" and there is NO stipulation, restriction or requirement on the card OR in State Statute that says you MUST carry concealed if you have a permit.

Thirdly, the MSP has stated as official policy that even if you ARE rich or connected enough to get an unrestricted MD permit, if you are caught OCing, EVEN THOUGH OC IS !))% LEGAL WITH A PERMIT, that they will arrest you, confiscate your firearm, and revoke your permit.

And Lastly, although OC of a long gun may be LEGAL under MD law, I find it impossible to believe that any law-abiding citizen could do it without being beaten, arrested, robbed of their property and incarcerated by MD LEOs.

If Papa Bear wants to put together a "Shotgun Picnic in MD, I will GLADLY attend and support his effort--but the only "weapon" I will be carrying is a video camera, and a cell phone with a good lawyer on speed-dial, because although I AM willing to go to great lengths to fight for the gun rights of fellow Marylanders, I am NOT willing to be beaten, tazed, and perhaps even shot to prove my point. If you are, then good on ya, and I will do everything I can to support such a protest (short of actually carrying a firearm) but I have a 3-year-old granddaughter that I fully intend on seeing graduate from college, and knowing MD LE attitudes on this issue, I would feel safer walking unarmed through Druid Heights in Baltimore after dark wearing a $3000 suit and a Rolex than I would wearing a Mossberg pump on my shoulder in a Maryland Public Park on a sunny Saturday afternoon.

I will not comment on MSI's position on such an activity as this, but I think everyone knows where I stand and where THEY stand, and that's all I have to say about that...

 

[Emtp8383]

Open carry demonstration would probably be a bad idea, even if open carry of long guns is legal.

§ 4-208. Possession of firearm at public demonstration


(a) Definitions. --

(1) In this section the following words have the meanings indicated.

(2) (i) "Demonstration" means one or more persons demonstrating, picketing, speechmaking, marching, holding a vigil, or engaging in any other similar conduct that involves the communication or expression of views or grievances and that has the effect, intent, or propensity to attract a crowd or onlookers.

(ii) "Demonstration" does not include the casual use of property by visitors or tourists that does not have the intent or propensity to attract a crowd or onlookers.

(3) (i) "Firearm" means a handgun, rifle, shotgun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or any other firearm, whether loaded or unloaded.

(ii) "Firearm" does not include an antique firearm.

(4) "Handgun" has the meaning stated in § 5-101 of the Public Safety Article.

(5) "Law enforcement officer" means:

(i) a member of a police force or other unit of the United States, the State, a county, municipal corporation, or other political subdivision who is responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the enforcement of the laws of the United States, the State, a county, municipal corporation, or other political subdivision;

(ii) a park police officer of the Maryland-National Capital Park and Planning Commission;

(iii) a member of the University of Maryland police force; and

(iv) any military or militia personnel directed by constituted authority to keep law and order.

(6) (i) "Public place" means a place to which the general public has access and a right to resort for business, entertainment, or other lawful purpose.

(ii) "Public place" is not limited to a place devoted solely to the uses of the public.

(iii) "Public place" includes:

1. the front or immediate area or parking lot of a store, restaurant, tavern, shopping center, or other place of business;

2. a public building, including its grounds and curtilage;

3. a public parking lot;

4. a public street, sidewalk, or right-of-way;

5. a public park; and

6. other public grounds.

(b) Prohibited. --

(1) This subsection does not apply to a law enforcement officer.

(2) A person may not have a firearm in the person's possession or on or about the person at a demonstration in a public place or in a vehicle that is within 1,000 feet of a demonstration in a public place after:

(i) the person has been advised by a law enforcement officer that a demonstration is occurring at the public place; and

(ii) the person has been ordered by the law enforcement officer to leave the area of the demonstration until the person disposes of the firearm.

(c) Penalty. -- A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 1 year or a fine not exceeding $ 1,000 or both.

 

[papa bear]

Open carry demonstration would probably be a bad idea, even if open carry of long guns is legal.

§ 4-208. Possession of firearm at public demonstration

.

so what this law is saying EMTP, that not only does MD does not care for your second A rights. they don't care about your first either

 

[Emtp8383]

so what this law is saying EMTP, that not only does MD does not care for your second A rights. they don't care about your first either

Imagine that, MD doesn't care for your rights. I'm shocked.

Of course from the way I read it you can't even drive through downtown Baltimore with a firearm in the car, whether you are otherwise legally in posession of it or not. There is always a group of people "protesting" something. Most of the time I see them they're lazily leaning on a sign or in a chair next to said sign on Pratt St by Powerplant. Even two blocks over would be within 1000 feet. I'm no lawyer but thats the way I read the law.