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Interesting thought on open carry

Jared

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I had an interesting though on open carry inCalifornia. I'm thinking that it's pretty much illegal to open carry anywhere in the state without the open carry permit.

Even in an unincorporated areais it not illegal to discharge a firearm inside abuilding occupied by the public (restaurant, store, etc.) as well as so many feet fromsuch a building?

If so, that would fall under a prohibited discharge area in PC12031 which would make it illegal to OC loaded.

I want to know what your thoughts are and if I'm correct in this assessment then please be aware that what many people have thought as being lawful may turn out to be unlawful afterall.
 

Decoligny

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The only open carry permit that exists in California is for "Loaded Open Carry".

It is only for counties where the population as of the last census is under 200,000.

It only covers the county where it was issued.

Itmakes LOADED OPEN CARRY legal within an INCORPORATED city in that county, orwithinprohibited areas of unincorporated territory in that county.

To date there is no record of any Open Carry permits ever being issued.

In an unincorporated area, they define a "prohibited area" as an area where dischare of firearms is illegal by local or county ordinance.

I live inKern County. There is no ordinance making discharge inside a building illegal, there is no ordinance making discharge within a certain distance of a building illegal. Thus, I can open carry loaded pretty much anywhere I like (discounting gun free zones) except on any public street as it is illegal to discharge a firearm on or across a public street.

When people here talk about Open Carry in California, we are talking about UNLOADED OPEN CARRY which is absolutely legal as long as you don't violate any "GUN FREE ZONES" like being knowingly within 1000 feet of a school, or in a Post Office, or on the grounds of the capitol, of in the Governor's mansion.


Please review the information contained here:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/8457.html

and here:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/4842.html

and here:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=107905

During the San Diego Open Carry luncheon, there were about 40 people LEGALLY open carrying. The San Diego Police Department was there and they didn't arrest anyone. They didn't have an "open carry permit" amonst them, and if they did, it wouldn't be valid in San Diego County as they have many many more people than the 200,000 limit in the PC.
 

Jared

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stevenrm87 wrote:
Dude what r u talking about?:uhoh:
Regarding loaded OC without an OC license.

PC 12031 prohibits it in incorporated areas and anywhere it is illegal to discharge a firearm.

Because of the "discharge a firearm", I'm saying that it would be illegal to open carry in any public establishment even in an unincorporated area because it's illegal to discharge a firearm in a building or so many feet from a building. That's all I'm talking about.

Since some people have open carried loaded in some places like Subway in unincorporated areas, it's illegal because it's illegal to discharge a firearm in a place like subway.

Any other questions?
 

Jared

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Decoligny wrote:
The only open carry permit that exists in California is for "Loaded Open Carry".

It is only for counties where the population as of the last census is under 200,000.

It only covers the county where it was issued.

Itmakes LOADED OPEN CARRY legal within an INCORPORATED city in that county, orwithinprohibited areas of unincorporated territory in that county.

To date there is no record of any Open Carry permits ever being issued.

In an unincorporated area, they define a "prohibited area" as an area where dischare of firearms is illegal by local or county ordinance.

I live inKern County. There is no ordinance making discharge inside a building illegal, there is no ordinance making discharge within a certain distance of a building illegal. Thus, I can open carry loaded pretty much anywhere I like (discounting gun free zones) except on any public street as it is illegal to discharge a firearm on or across a public street.

When people here talk about Open Carry in California, we are talking about UNLOADED OPEN CARRY which is absolutely legal as long as you don't violate any "GUN FREE ZONES" like being knowingly within 1000 feet of a school, or in a Post Office, or on the grounds of the capitol, of in the Governor's mansion.


Please review the information contained here:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/8457.html

and here:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/4842.html

and here:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=107905

During the San Diego Open Carry luncheon, there were about 40 people LEGALLY open carrying. The San Diego Police Department was there and they didn't arrest anyone. They didn't have an "open carry permit" amonst them, and if they did, it wouldn't be valid in San Diego County as they have many many more people than the 200,000 limit in the PC.
I'm very well aware of this.I was just throwing in the public establishment idea in there for thought. It's just something I've never seen anyone discuss, but since you explained Kern County, now we know for Kern County.
 

Decoligny

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Jared wrote:
stevenrm87 wrote:
Dude what r u talking about?:uhoh:
Regarding loaded OC without an OC license.

PC 12031 prohibits it in incorporated areas and anywhere it is illegal to discharge a firearm.

Because of the "discharge a firearm", I'm saying that it would be illegal to open carry in any public establishment even in an unincorporated area because it's illegal to discharge a firearm in a building or so many feet from a building. That's all I'm talking about.

Since some people have open carried loaded in some places like Subway in unincorporated areas, it's illegal because it's illegal to discharge a firearm in a place like subway.

Any other questions?
I disagree with your approach to this subject. You are implying that it IS illegal to discharge a firearm in a public establishment. Can you back up that assertion with any legal citation.

There might be some laws like that in Michigan for all I know, but at the state level here in California, I have read everything in the Penal Code about firearms and I know of no such restriction. And at the county level, there are 58 different counties in California. I haven't thouroughly researched all of them, but I haven't run into any county ordiances that even address discharge of weapons in public establishments.

Unless something is specifically made illegal, then it is legal.

So, I am throwing the BS flag on your initial presumption that it is illegal.
 

Jared

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Decoligny wrote:
Jared wrote:
stevenrm87 wrote:
Dude what r u talking about?:uhoh:
Regarding loaded OC without an OC license.

PC 12031 prohibits it in incorporated areas and anywhere it is illegal to discharge a firearm.

Because of the "discharge a firearm", I'm saying that it would be illegal to open carry in any public establishment even in an unincorporated area because it's illegal to discharge a firearm in a building or so many feet from a building. That's all I'm talking about.

Since some people have open carried loaded in some places like Subway in unincorporated areas, it's illegal because it's illegal to discharge a firearm in a place like subway.

Any other questions?
I disagree with your approach to this subject. You are implying that it IS illegal to discharge a firearm in a public establishment. Can you back up that assertion with any legal citation.

There might be some laws like that in Michigan for all I know, but at the state level here in California, I have read everything in the Penal Code about firearms and I know of no such restriction. And at the county level, there are 58 different counties in California. I haven't thouroughly researched all of them, but I haven't run into any county ordiances that even address discharge of weapons in public establishments.

Unless something is specifically made illegal, then it is legal.

So, I am throwing the BS flag on your initial presumption that it is illegal.


No problem, let me talk your hand and walk you through this.



PC 12031 (f) states

As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place
where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.


Any place means any place, either by state or local law, if it's prohibited to discharge a weapon, then it's illegal to carry a loaded weapon without a OC permit.

For starters, vehicles are prohibited areas because of...

12034. (a) It is a misdemeanor for a driver of any motor vehicle or the owner of any motor vehicle, whether or not the owner of the vehicle is occupying the vehicle, knowingly to permit any other person to carry into or bring into the vehicle a firearm in violation of Section 12031 of this code or Section 2006 of the Fish and Game Code. (b) Any driver or owner of any vehicle, whether or not the owner of the vehicle is occupying the vehicle, who knowingly permits any other person to discharge any firearm from the vehicle is punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year or in state prison for 16 months or two or three years.

As far as buildings, if there are any local zoning laws about discharging a firearm in so many feet of a building or in a building. Then that would be a prohibited place as well.

I'm just trying to get some people to think past the "if it's unincorporated, then it's ok". It may not be, the devil is in the details. If any part of a local law says it's illegal to dischargea firearm at any place, then PC 12031 kicks in.

I'm just throwing this in the mix, no need to get offensive, although everyone on this site seems to lately. OC.org is slowly becoming packing.org

As far as Michigan, we don't have California's silly gun laws. As far as CA, I can already carry openly or concealed there as well, so I'm not overly concerned about it. I just thought I'd bring it up because of all the OC talk in California and I'd hate to see someone become a criminal because podunk county has some law that makes the prohibited place part of 12031 kick in.
 

Gray Peterson

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Folks,

I know there's a temptation to flow a penalty flag at Jared but I think his statement may have some value and I believe it to be correct. He's one of our allies, he's one of the big wigs at CRAL up in Rhode Island, and he's one of the few people I trust with legal analysis.

Even if what he's saying is true, it should be celebrating to know this information. If California law is that oppressive, even MORE reason to challenge post incorporation.
 

CA_Libertarian

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12034. (a) It is a misdemeanor for a driver of any motor vehicle or the owner of any motor vehicle, whether or not the owner of the vehicle is occupying the vehicle, knowingly to permit any other person to carry into or bring into the vehicle a firearm in violation of Section 12031 of this code or Section 2006 of the Fish and Game Code. (b) Any driver or owner of any vehicle, whether or not the owner of the vehicle is occupying the vehicle, who knowingly permits any other person to discharge any firearm from the vehicle is punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year or in state prison for 16 months or two or three years.
We've had the 12034 discussion here before, and I don't think we all agreed on the interpretation last time either. Think back to first grade English for this one... a noun is one of three things: a person, place, or thing. My argument is that in 12034 a vehicle is an "thing," not a "place." 12031 specifically discusses prohibited locations, not objects in which it would be illegal to discharge the firearm.

The opposing argument states that since it is illegal to discharge a weapon from a vehicle, it must also be illegal to carry loaded in a vehicle. While I agree that there's a decent chance a conviction under this logic would stick, I don't think that was the intent of the legislature. I wouldn't want to be the test case, but if I were an unbiased juror, I would say the logic doesn't fit.

Now, some localities have restrictions. Stanislaus county, for example, prohibits the discharge of a firearm within 100' (IIRC) of an occupied dwelling, unless you have permission from the owner or tenant of the property. Structures are also "things" and not "places." However, since structures are stationary, and the ordinance describes the place surrounding such structure, a prohibited area can be determined.

Like I said, I won't be a test case for this logic... at least not until we're ready to start repealing some of these ridiculous laws.
 

Jared

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CA_Libertarian wrote:
We've had the 12034 discussion here before, and I don't think we all agreed on the interpretation last time either. Think back to first grade English for this one... a noun is one of three things: a person, place, or thing. My argument is that in 12034 a vehicle is an "thing," not a "place." 12031 specifically discusses prohibited locations, not objects in which it would be illegal to discharge the firearm.

The opposing argument states that since it is illegal to discharge a weapon from a vehicle, it must also be illegal to carry loaded in a vehicle. While I agree that there's a decent chance a conviction under this logic would stick, I don't think that was the intent of the legislature. I wouldn't want to be the test case, but if I were an unbiased juror, I would say the logic doesn't fit.

Now, some localities have restrictions. Stanislaus county, for example, prohibits the discharge of a firearm within 100' (IIRC) of an occupied dwelling, unless you have permission from the owner or tenant of the property. Structures are also "things" and not "places." However, since structures are stationary, and the ordinance describes the place surrounding such structure, a prohibited area can be determined.

Like I said, I won't be a test case for this logic... at least not until we're ready to start repealing some of these ridiculous laws.
This was my goal, to get a discussion going on this. A vehicle could very well be defined to be a place under the law since place and thing and not defined anywhere in the California penal code. At least I could not find any definitions.

You may be correct, but there is so much that is not defined here that you could easily be convicted here.

It's kind of like how Oregon's loaded carry ban (local governments can ban this for non permit holders) The law says that it does not apply unless you are licensed to carry, it does not say you need an Oregon license, but would anyone want to be a test case??? Probably not.

PC12031 like most california law, can give anyone a headache to read, but after reading it a dozen times, people should just stand on the side of caution, but at the very least, discuss it.
 

Mechanic

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This sounds like a purely academic exercise in logic. Unfortunately, laws are not required to be logical.

If discharge is prohibited in a specific area, that doesn't prohibit UOC. All that means to me is that if you pull the trigger, you can be prosecuted for discharge.

Discharge is prohibited anywhere within the city limits of Los Angeles and Glendale. There are exceptions, but not for self defence. City residents have to choose between self defence and a discharge violation. Glendale (09.24.060) even requires a permit to discharge ("Excuse me thief, I'd like to shoot you, so you hang out here, while I go get a permit.") Anecdotally, I haven't even seen gangsters convicted of killing some being charged with illegal discharge.

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I'm confident that I can UOC in Los Angeles, and will deal with a discharge violation after I defend myself.
 

CA_Libertarian

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Mechanic wrote:
If discharge is prohibited in a specific area, that doesn't prohibit UOC. All that means to me is that if you pull the trigger, you can be prosecuted for discharge.
But it does prohibit LOC, which is pertinent to this discussion.

Discharge is prohibited anywhere within the city limits of Los Angeles and Glendale. There are exceptions, but not for self defence. City residents have to choose between self defence and a discharge violation. Glendale (09.24.060) even requires a permit to discharge ("Excuse me thief, I'd like to shoot you, so you hang out here, while I go get a permit.") Anecdotally, I haven't even seen gangsters convicted of killing some being charged with illegal discharge.
I've also never heard of any person in a SD situation being charged under such muni codes (I think literally every city has one in this state). Most cities do have an exception for SD situations. It would be hard to get a conviction, and even harder to make it stick on appeal. And if it saves you and your family from injury or death, then I'd say it's worth the slight chance of doing up to 12 months in county.
 

MudCamper

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CA_Libertarian wrote:
Mechanic wrote:
If discharge is prohibited in a specific area, that doesn't prohibit UOC. All that means to me is that if you pull the trigger, you can be prosecuted for discharge.
But it does prohibit LOC, which is pertinent to this discussion.
Don't forget that 12031 does not apply when under "immediate, grave danger" per 12031(j)(1). So you can legally load if needed.
 

Hiredgun30

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damn.... the best thing my mom ever did was get us out of Cali in 1989...
I dont know what it is like NOT to be able to OC or CC in any city, county, or vehicle.
 

Robin47

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Hi Guys,

O.K. PC 12034 It seems like where the Coma's are at specifyes the thought.

" KNOWINGLY TO PERMIT ANY OTHER PERSON TO CARRY INTO OR BRING INTO THE VEHICLE A FIREARM IN VIOLATION OF Sec-12031"

I must admit I haven't read F&G code 2006 yet.

And I don't know yet or think you can carry LOADED, in any Vehicle at any time because it is a "Prohibited Area".

Am I right on this ? Unless your on a Moterbike off road, or walking in the woods. then you can load-up.

You can carry loaded as long as your not on a road in an Unincorperated area or a Probibited area.

So with Section 12034 G&F code, "you cant Discharge a firearm" from a vehicle.

It don't say you can't carry it on you unloaded , so your not violating PC- 12031.

I would think carring loadedON a public road, in the National Forest that they could get you for PC 12031.

What are your thoughts on this ? Robin47
 

KS_to_CA

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I will be moving to CA from KS. Chances are i won't be getting a CCW in San Diego. How can I join San Diego Open Carry? Is there a membership card? Please tell me there is. I imagine, an officer looking at a card would probably put the officer in a position to think, "hhmmm, member no. 40, that many? I guess it's legal I just dont know about it". And while it seems one of the reasons for OC is to educate, this simple thing might help relieve steam fron the get-go. Just my 0.02. I could be wrong.
 

ConditionThree

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KS_to_CA wrote:
I will be moving to CA from KS. Chances are i won't be getting a CCW in San Diego. How can I join San Diego Open Carry? Is there a membership card? Please tell me there is. I imagine, an officer looking at a card would probably put the officer in a position to think, "hhmmm, member no. 40, that many? I guess it's legal I just dont know about it". And while it seems one of the reasons for OC is to educate, this simple thing might help relieve steam fron the get-go. Just my 0.02. I could be wrong.
I believe this an informal group. No membership card, no dues- but there are a number of pamphlets already made to educate. I think you might start by looking over at Calguns.net - that seems to be where they are making all their plans/

Welcome KS_to_CA
 

KS_to_CA

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12034.(c) Any person who willfully and maliciouslydischarges a firearm from a motor vehicle at another person other than an occupant of a motor vehicle is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment in state prison for three, five, or seven years.



Guys, what do you think of this statute? :shock:
 

cato2

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KS_to_CA wrote:
12034.(c) Any person who willfully and maliciouslydischarges a firearm from a motor vehicle at another person other than an occupant of a motor vehicle is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment in state prison for three, five, or seven years.



Guys, what do you think of this statute? :shock:
Yep, can't shoot at pedestrians...
 
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