• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Little clarity on the law please.

Marc

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
184
Location
St. Joseph, Missouri, USA
Ok , I know that by law my 20 year old neighbor can purchase a handgun from me because i am not an FFL holder. The thing is, i bought all my guns from FFL dealers. How do I legally sell my neighbor the pistol he wants to buy from me without them calling it a straw purchase?? I am new to private sales as i have never bought or sold any guns to a private citizen, can somebody please help me figure this out? I want my neighbor to be able to exercise his rights but i dont want to get charged with a crime for it.
 

chiggerbyt

New member
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Messages
13
Location
MO
Hi Mike,
A "straw purchase" can only occur when a person is getting a gun on behalf of another person from a dealer and lying that they are the actual purchaser on question one of the form 4473. This does not apply if the person is buying the firearm legitimately as a "gift" for another person from the dealer though. A straw purchase cannot occur as a private sale between two residents of the same state.
If you are concerned the buyer may be a prohibited person or buying it for other than good intentions I would suggest transferring the firearm thru a licensed dealer (FFL) in your area. Most will do it for $20 or so (that's what I charge). That takes it out of your name and the buyer will have a background check done to show they can legally own the firearm. Some buyers and seller split the fee.
Of course then the buyer would have to be 21 for a handgun to come from a dealer or 18 for a long gun. I know the laws don't always make sense but they are what they are. Hope this helps some. chig
 

LMTD

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Messages
1,919
Location
, ,
Solid advice.

Keep your bill of sale that has the serial and some form if identification number of the buyer is the only thing I would add. In the case of the FFL fransfer, the delivery to the ffl paper work is fine.
 

hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,330
Location
Okanogan Highland
A straw purchase is when your neighbor gives you his money to go to the LGS and purchase a specific firearm that he could not purchase himself if he was to go to the same dealer.

If you are selling him a firearm that you already own, bought and paid for with your own money, It is not straw purchase.

If you gift him a firearm that you purchased with your own money, it is a gift, not a straw purchase.

Difference...his money went to the FFL, or your money.
 

REALteach4u

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
429
Location
Spfld, Mo.
Hi Mike,
A "straw purchase" can only occur when a person is getting a gun on behalf of another person from a dealer and lying that they are the actual purchaser on question one of the form 4473. This does not apply if the person is buying the firearm legitimately as a "gift" for another person from the dealer though. A straw purchase cannot occur as a private sale between two residents of the same state.
If you are concerned the buyer may be a prohibited person or buying it for other than good intentions I would suggest transferring the firearm thru a licensed dealer (FFL) in your area. Most will do it for $20 or so (that's what I charge). That takes it out of your name and the buyer will have a background check done to show they can legally own the firearm. Some buyers and seller split the fee.
Of course then the buyer would have to be 21 for a handgun to come from a dealer or 18 for a long gun. I know the laws don't always make sense but they are what they are. Hope this helps some. chig


And the above would be exactly why I love the government's own stupidity. Per the Form 4473 a straw purchase CANNOT happen. As posted above, it clearly states that you can purchase a firearm as a gift for another and that when you do, YOU still fill out the form as the actually buyer. My favorite statement by a Missouri Field Agent: "It's up to YOU, the individual, to know who you are selling to in a private transaction. Sell to someone who would not be legal to possess or could not make that purchase through NICS, even if you don't know it, and you're then in violation of Federal law and possibly State law. Cover your 6 with private documentation or go through a FFL holder!"

Where they get someone is transferring (in any way) a firearm to an individual who would not legally be able to purchase a firearm (ie pass the NICS check, see the BATFE's website for that info if you ever need it).
 

hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,330
Location
Okanogan Highland
You are making a statement that goes a bit to far...

the law is, you cannot sell a firearm to a prohibited individual "knowingly" you know, if you know the person is prohibited, then you have broken the law. If you do not "personally know" the buyer was prohibited, you have done nothing wrong.

You are not even required to ask, even though any responsible gun owner will, and if the buyer says yes, or I don't know, then you just don't make the sale, or, in the case of an "I don't know" answer, then at a minimum you go through an FFL to be sure.

Just remember, you do not have to sell any weapon to anyone you don't feel good about, no matter what their answer is. I know a lot of people won't sell to a person that doesn't have a concealed firearms license, but there is no law saying that is what you have to do.
 

Marc

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
184
Location
St. Joseph, Missouri, USA
Well it sounds like a catch-22, as far as i know the only thing that restricts him from buying a handgun thru nics is that he's not 21 yet another law says he only has to be 18, that is where im confused.
 

LMTD

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Messages
1,919
Location
, ,
Well it sounds like a catch-22, as far as i know the only thing that restricts him from buying a handgun thru nics is that he's not 21 yet another law says he only has to be 18, that is where im confused.

That's easy, the sheeple like hearing that you can not walk into the store and buy a gun until you are 21, it sounds good, despite the fact that a 14 year old gang banger can buy one on the streets, some how the sheeple are comforted hearing such utter BS.

A straw purchase is intentionally buying a firearm for another person not as a gift but to intentionally circumvent the 4473 check, it is literally that simple. It forces a dealer to say NO to a guy who hands the money to another and says I want that one and the second guy tries to buy it.

You bought the pistol for yourself. Unless you did so specifically with the intent of selling it to the guy knowing he could not pass a 4473, then it is NOT a straw, if you did buy it with that intent it IS a straw.

Bare in mind, the actuality of it being a straw has nothing to do with the BATF's position on aggressively trying to discourage gun ownership, that is their mission.

Another point, you seem to be too concerned with the straw purchase tool, it is not really an end user abused tool, it is one the BATF uses to harass dealers which is likely part of their mission statement.
 
Top