My encounter at 16

[Gunslinger]

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Aran wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

Aran wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

Aran wrote:

Gunslinger wrote:

quote>>Pointing a pistol at me now wouldn't be a good idea especially seeing I would see this as a threat against my life!<<quote





You go up to someone's home, and he has a pistol, so you bring yours out and point it at him and you'll be a guest of the state for a long, long time. You were on his property, at his front door, he didn't know you from Adam. While he perhaps should have kept the gun out of sight--as I've done in similar circumstances, although it was at 3AM, he was completely within his rights to have the weapon. Your comment that you would pull a gun on someone while on his property is the dumbest thing I've heard on this forum. Stay off his property, or if you choose to go, keep the gun to yourself or you'll wind up dead, and with full justification, or in jail. If someone came to my door, and I had a pistol, then for WHATEVER reason drew his own, I wouldn't have to call the cops. Just the Cornoner. "Dead witnesses offer slight rebuttal."

I'm embarrassed to share a forum with you. You're insane.

Within his rights to hold you at gunpoint for knocking on his door? Sell your guns, you're a danger to everyone around you.

Hey moron, learn how to read. Nobody held anyone at gunpoint. I guess in your fantasy world the words mean only what you want them to. I doubt you even have a gun to sell, working at the car wash you dumb a-hole. Good luck on your GED.

Mmm, ad hominem attack. Sign of someone with no opinion worth hearing.

"You're insane." Who wrote that? I'm not sure if you're simply a fool or have some other agenda. In either case, you demonstrate your ignorance quite well.

Based on your opinions, I feel you are insane. That is not ad hominem.

I repeat, you are an idiot. That is not an opinion, but fact. My opinions are based upon having a JD degree. Yours are based upon your being an idiot. End of discussion. You're not worth the effort.

 

[unreconstructed1]

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No one has teh right to draw down on another person simply because they are there. If someone knocks onyour door selling magazine Subscriptions, you don't have a right to point a gun at them with your finger on the trigger demanding them to throw their hands up.

If a Jehovahs witness comes to your door, you gonna pull a shotgun?

If you are that damn scared, maybe you shouldn't be answering your door.

and by the way, I have a GED, what's wrong with that?

 

[Dustin]

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unreconstructed1 wrote:

No one has teh right to draw down on another person simply because they are there. If someone knocks onyour door selling magazine Subscriptions, you don't have a right to point a gun at them with your finger on the trigger demanding them to throw their hands up.

If a Jehovahs witness comes to your door, you gonna pull a shotgun?

If you are that damn scared, maybe you shouldn't be answering your door.

and by the way, I have a GED, what's wrong with that?

Errch !!!

Now just where do you get off saying what IDo, andDo Not, have the right to do on my own damn property ?!?!? (See how it works?)

Seriously though, your being way to nieve.

Two kids, Friday night, knocking on an old man's door, who lives in the country.

What if this old man, Last friday got harrased by teens ? He 'd be ready for them this time.

Now hey pointing a gun at someone without the intent to pull the trigger is never cool in my book.

But I want tell ANYONE in the US

what they can and cannot do on THEIR OWN PROPERTY !

 

[imperialism2024]

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unreconstructed1 wrote:

No one has teh right to draw down on another person simply because they are there. If someone knocks onyour door selling magazine Subscriptions, you don't have a right to point a gun at them with your finger on the trigger demanding them to throw their hands up.

If a Jehovahs witness comes to your door, you gonna pull a shotgun?

If you are that damn scared, maybe you shouldn't be answering your door.

Well, if they're selling magazine subscriptions in the middle of the night, especially in today's society where schools and other organizations discourage door-to-door selling, I'd be suspicious.

As for Jehovah's witnesses... you don't want to know my honest opinion about that, do you?


Anyhow, I personally would have kept a firearm ready (round chambered, safety off, finger next to trigger), but not pointed at the people. And talked through the door instead of opening it. But the point still stands that you need to be very careful when entering the property of others at night, especially when you're trying to gain access to the place of dwelling.

And folks, let's take it easy on the name-calling and other personal jabs. It's poor argumentation, makes OCDO look bad as a whole, and has great potential to get this thread locked or deleted. "Self-moderation" is the word of the day.

 

[adam40cal]

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Yeah your right the personal attacks aren't needed I made this post to tell a story I had when I was a kid not to start a flame war. As far as I'm concerned its done and over with I just thought I'd share my story. The only thing on my mind right now is the fact we finally got the feds to admit the 2nd Amendment is an individual right :celebrate

 

[Citizen]

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mzbk2l wrote:

Citizen wrote:

Guys!!

I don't understand why we're having this debate.

The law in many states, if not all,is clear on a particular point in the story.

When the homeowner called the kid's attention to the pointed firearm it was, at a minimum, brandishing.

End of discussion. We don't need to resort to personal opinion. What are we going to do, rehash 600 years of common law on threatening someone with aweapon?

So you don't feel that a defensive display of a weapon when some stranger knocks on your door out in the country after dark is appropriate?

This is what I'm talking about. Rehashing hundreds of years of common law. Do we really think we can come up with a better answerthan the thousands who have gone before us?

Come on fellas. The law is not always wrong. Yes, it can be howling wrong sometimes; but we've got vast experience behindlots of law. Lets take advantage of all that possible wisdom by consulting it.



Here is what the OP said: "As my brother started to explain to him what happened (the guy could see my truck smashed and in the ditch it was only 60 yards from his front porch granted) when they guys says can't you see what I have?"

Did the old man say, "I don't want to talk?" Or, "Please leave"? Orlet it beknownthrough a closed door? No. Hiscalling attention to his gun.The timing of his calling attention to it. And what the kid was doing when the attention calling was made clearly show the old man's only purpose was to interrupt the kid and scare him away. When the kids were not only not making any threatening moves, sounds, orindications; but when they were asking for help. Something even the old man's wife was able tofigure out.

Brandishing. Plain and simple.

For the other dissenters, I have no information that brandishing laws make exceptions for private property or time of day. I'm not saying there aren't any; I'm unaware of any.

 

[only_one]

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Perhaps the guy should not have pointed the gun directly at you with his finger on the trigger...but having the gun visible and ready to go should not be a problem. Granted you were in an area with little or no crime but would you want to be that one in a million victim? Do you have any idea how many home invasions start off with "can i use your phone?" Just last year here in Arizona two young men approached a house and asked to use the woman's phone because their tire was flat. She said yes andseven more men followed the other two in the house. They repeatedly raped her and beat her...

 

[drkarrow]

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Walking up to someone's front door that is openly accessible without no-trespassing signs is completely legal.

Pointing a gun at someone is threat of great bodily harm or death. This is a crime. Even on private property you cannot threaten to kill someone.

Pretty much everywhere I have checked it is never legal to point a gun at someone unless you are also legal to shoot him. Brandish, ok. Point, not ok.

To those who think this is ok, when the police show up at your door, I hope you open the door with your gun pointed at them too. Then they will quickly resolve any doubts.

 

[swillden]

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drkarrow wrote:

Walking up to someone's front door that is openly accessible without no-trespassing signs is completely legal.

Pointing a gun at someone is threat of great bodily harm or death. This is a crime. Even on private property you cannot threaten to kill someone.

+1

The law varies from state to state, but in Utah the old man could have been charged with felony aggravated assault (there is no law about brandishing, but threat of assault is assault). Our variant of the castle doctrine protects homeowners, but only when the bad guy sneaks in or breaks in, or the homeowner has a reasonable belief that he's there to commit a felony. Knocking on the door, regardless of the hour, doesn't qualify so the normal rules apply.

Of course the man was prudent to have his gun handy, but threatening with it and especially pointing it goes beyond reasonable.

 

[Dustin]

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drkarrow wrote:

Walking up to someone's front door that is openly accessible without no-trespassing signs is completely legal.

Pointing a gun at someone is threat of great bodily harm or death. This is a crime. Even on private property you cannot threaten to kill someone.

Pretty much everywhere I have checked it is never legal to point a gun at someone unless you are also legal to shoot him. Brandish, ok. Point, not ok.

To those who think this is ok, when the police show up at your door, I hope you open the door with your gun pointed at them too. Then they will quickly resolve any doubts.

Your nutts.

At night, strangers, on my porch, on my property.

You DO NOT have to have No Trespassing signs in your Yard to make people aware that it is your yard.

Not sure where you live, but @ 8:00, in the winter IT'S DARK !!

Also Police in Uniform and Strangers look MUCH different.

AGAIN,NO one has a Clue if the Weekend before strangers, At night, Harrased this Old Man or not. He could have been waiting for them to try it again.

My Last two posts have said the same thing, but no one seems to take them into consideration.

For all I know the OP could be a lie, and very likely is writing the story more baised towards himself.

I tell you what, if the weekend before myself or my neigbors were harrased, or shot at, or anything criminal, I'd be MORE on gaurd the next weekend.

How do you know that's not what this man was going thru ?

 

[Citizen]

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Dustin wrote:

SNIP Your nutts...

1. None of which, from a legal standpoint, authorize brandishing.

2. None of which, from a tactical standpoint,make itnecessary.

3. None of which, from a rationality standpoint,make itnecessary.

4. None of which, from an ethical standpoint, make it appropriate.

In summary, its not legal, tactical, rational, nor ethical to point a gun at someone and call their attention to the pointed gununder the described circumstances.

 

[Walleye]

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I think we can all agree that:

- Having your sidearm handy when answering the door at the dead of night is prudent.

- Pointing your weapon with your finger on the trigger at whoever may be at the door is dangerously reckless.

- There is a chance - however remote - that when someone comes up to your door they could have malicious intent in store for you. To not be prepared for that is foolhardy.

In this case, I think the homeowner made some massive mistakes; but at the same token, I know if someone knocks on my door at midnight I'm not going to answer it unarmed.

 

[Alwayspacking]

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Walleye wrote:

I think we can all agree that:

- Having your sidearm handy when answering the door at the dead of night is prudent.

- Pointing your weapon with your finger on the trigger at whoever may be at the door is dangerously reckless.

- There is a chance - however remote - that when someone comes up to your door they could have malicious intent in store for you. To not be prepared for that is foolhardy.

In this case, I think the homeowner made some massive mistakes; but at the same token, I know if someone knocks on my door at midnight I'm not going to answer it unarmed.

I could not have said it better myself. I agree with you 100%

 

[adam40cal]

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Dustin wrote:

drkarrow wrote:

Walking up to someone's front door that is openly accessible without no-trespassing signs is completely legal.

Pointing a gun at someone is threat of great bodily harm or death. This is a crime. Even on private property you cannot threaten to kill someone.

Pretty much everywhere I have checked it is never legal to point a gun at someone unless you are also legal to shoot him. Brandish, ok. Point, not ok.

To those who think this is ok, when the police show up at your door, I hope you open the door with your gun pointed at them too. Then they will quickly resolve any doubts.

For all I know the OP could be a lie, and very likely is writing the story more baised towards himself.

Well to set the record strait I told this story exactly how I remember it. Me and my brother walked up to the door knocked to ask the guy to call the police and he pulled a pistol on me as soon as he opened the door. The guy broke the law bottom line, you can't legally pull a firearm on someone for knocking on your door.

 

[ToJas]

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PT111 wrote:

The general opinion of this board is that you are lucky he didn't shoot you through the door under the Castle Doctrine law and would have been well within his rights to do it.

Overall is that the man did nothing wrong and you are lucky you didn't get shot. If you had given him any lip then he probably would have shot you and been within his rights.

Seriously? The general opinion of this board is that we can shoot people who knock on our doors? I don't think that this is an accurate statement, and I'm also certain that he'd be a guest of the state had he shot through the door at someone because they knocked on the door.

I realize that there are those of you who are more educated than me, but can someone please show me how the second bolded part is true? I just don't see it.

 

[adam40cal]

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PT111 wrote:

I see three different opinions here. One is personal opinions that vary all over the place and I don't know what I would ahve done.

Second is the legal opinion and as long as he didn't shoot you I can't see where he did anything illegal. If he had shot you then it would depend on the mood of the jury that day.

The general opinion of this board is that you are lucky he didn't shoot you through the door under the Castle Doctrine law and would have been well within his rights to do it.

Overall is that the man did nothing wrong and you are lucky you didn't get shot. If you had given him any lip then he probably would have shot you and been within his rights.

I can tell you don't live in Michigan, back when this happened we had no castle doctrine this man had a duty to retreat under state law. And yes he did something wrong he broke the law and was not within his rights. Being a property owner does not give you a license to kill nor does the modern castle doctrine. And your right I"m lucky I didn't get shot, but so is he. He'd be spending the rest of his life in jail.

 

[unreconstructed1]

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Dustin wrote:

...Your nutts.....

first, as most of us have agreed, coming to the door without a gun would be reckless, but brandishing at someone is as well. about a year ago, at 11:00 pm, I get a knock on my door. that in and of itself is very unusual. I retrieved my pistol ( this was before I began to carry it with me). there was a gentleman at my door. he had knocked on my door to let me know that one of my dogs had gotten loose. Do you think that I should have drawn down on him?

while unusual, it does happen. now personally, If I were to knock on someones door in order to perform a service to them ( like this fellow did for me) and they point a gun at me, I will tell them quite quickly to go to hell and leave. furthermore, being from the South, I believe in helping out someone in distress. would I have offered to let them come inside? no, but I would have offered to bring my phone to them.

 

[MetalChris]

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Gunslinger wrote:

MetalChris wrote:

adam40cal wrote:

I edited my story once I read it I realized I said things wrong. Once again this was taken the wrong way I wasn't trying to say I would have pulled my own pistol on the guy. And I didn't at all say I would have drawn my pistol not sure where you got that from. Yes he has a right to defend his home I wont argue with that at all, but he didn't have a right to pull a loaded gun and point it at me with his finger on the trigger. Knocking on a persons door is not an act of violence. With the comment I made I carry my own pistol now I was trying to say and didn't explain myself real well was I understand things better now and would understand why the man had a gun I wasn't trying to say because I'd pull my gun.

x2

I can understand him having a gun when somebody unexpectedly knocks on his door at 3 AM, but he was in no way justified in pointing the damn thing at you. IMO, as long as you're not breaking the law, whenever someone points a gun at you it's an invitation for you to return the favor.

NOT on his property at or in his home. You go to jail or you go to the morgue. He has absolute right to use deadly force. You, failing his shooting at you, have none.

IF I were to go to YOUR home, and knock on YOUR door, and without provocation YOU point a gun at ME, YOU WILL DIE, and I will be found justified.

 

[Citizen]

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MetalChris wrote:

IF I were to go to YOUR home, and knock on YOUR door, and without provocation YOU point a gun at ME, YOU WILL DIE, and I will be found justified.

You understand you're going to want witnesses who are not members of the deceased's family to ensure that finding of justified?

I'm not saying you're not justified. I'm saying you're going to have to convince a jury if it goes to trial. If its just your truthful word against lying or even innocently mis-remembering family members...

 

[Gunslinger]

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Citizen wrote:

MetalChris wrote:

IF I were to go to YOUR home, and knock on YOUR door, and without provocation YOU point a gun at ME, YOU WILL DIE, and I will be found justified.

You understand you're going to want witnesses who are not members of the deceased's family to ensure that finding of justified?

I'm not saying you're not justified. I'm saying you're going to have to convince a jury if it goes to trial. If its just your truthful word against lying or even innocently mis-remembering family members...

My door, I don't think so. Anybody's door that you approach armed, and you shoot that person, you will be convicted of 2nd degree murder, barring witnesses who testify that he pulled his gun first. If that were the fact, you'd be dead as soon as you reached for your gun. Unless you walked up to the door with your gun out, then you'd charged with armed trespass and possibly more--up to and including attempted murder...that is, if you didn't get shot from a window.