OC incident in KC

[Citizen]

Missouri Revised Statutes[SIZE=+2]Chapter 84 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]Police Departments in St. Louis and Kansas City [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]Section 84.710 [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]August 28, 2009[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Police force--officers of state--powers to arrest (Kansas City). [/SIZE]
84.710. 1. The members of the police force...
2. ...shall also have the power to stop any person abroad whenever there is reasonable ground to suspect that he is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going...

************************************************************

You don't have to carry ID....look at what is in bold, that is where this statue is in effect (KC and St. Louis jurisdictions only) and what info you would have to give, but it doesn't say produce ID.

I notice the statute does not say the detainee has to give the identity information, only that the police officer has the authority to demand it. Nor does the statute give a penalty for refusing to provide identity information.

Is there another statute, for example, obstruction, that is applied to identity refusals in Missouri? Is there any case law on this in Missouri?

 

[cshoff]

The statute does not say when the cop has to do the articulation. As long as he can articulate it to the court, and the court accepts it as sufficient, your seizure will be ruled reasonable.

Well, kinda. In Missouri, you can only be held for 24 hours before law enforcement must either charge you with a criminal offense, or release you. In addition, you must be permitted reasonable access to counsel during that time in which you are being detained. Suffice it to say, if you are being charged with a criminal offense, the LEO WILL be articulating whatever reasonable suspicions he or she has at that time.

In addition, it's not just a simple matter of the LEO articulating his suspicions to a court. Under the rules of discovery, you are entitled to know of the evidence against you BEFORE you step into a court room, allowing you time to build your case against it. So his/her "reasonable suspicion" MUST be made known to you and your counsel before a judge or jury hears about it, or it is inadmissible as evidence.

 

[peterarthur]

Just general for readers. Not challenging Phssthpok personally.

Holy smoke! What a way to get slammed to the pavement and cuffed.

I have written on this extensively before. I will only hit some high points here. Take what you read here and extend it further along logical lines.

Terry gives the initial hint. Whether RAS existed is the privilege of the courts to decide. Notice the use of the past tense--"existed." This means after the encounter. Nowhere have I read that the courts have extended their power and privilege to rule on RAS to a citizen so he can determine RAS and walk away if he is not satisfied about the officers RAS.

I have no information that a cop is required to give you his RAS.

I have no information that a cop cannot give you only part of his RAS to see if you will admit to something.

I have lots of information that cops lie to detainees. Google "permissible deception" for whether it is legal for cops to lie to people they are investigating. I have no information that says a cop cannot lie to you about his RAS.

There are rafts of court opinions that discuss various sets of circumstances and whether a given set of facts amounted to RAS. Care to try to out-guess an LEO, a professional, about what circumstances amount to RAS? Care to try to out-guess an LEO who can also lie, bend, or stretch the facts to include a few things he knows are more likely to be approved by the judge as being sufficient for RAS?

Do you know whether courts allow LEOs to draw reasonable inferences from facts? Want to be whether the LEO knows?

Care to guess how an LEO-friendly judge might rule? Oh, you don't know whether the judge you might face is LEO-friendly? Oh, you don't even know the judges, or which you might face?

If you start to walk away, and the cop grabs you, are you going to resist and risk an obstruction charge (if illegal in your state)?

The deck is well stacked against the citizen regarding RAS and detentions during the detention.

Let them slam me to the pavement. If I have done nothing wrong and I have not left the officer without permission, let them violate my rights. I can take a roughing up which will pale in comparison to my legal response. I have had my face busted up before. But they better know they have me. I don't break laws and I always speak respectfully to officers and I would even endure being disarmed and unlawfully searched. I will ALLOW all violations of my person and my rights while strenuously objecting. Cope WILL hurt you for failure to submit to disarming or search. I will VERBALLY resist continuously, but not PHYSICALLY. If they should choose to take me down and cuff me for being VERBALLY resistant, they can start drafting the check right then -- UNLESS it is proven to me later that I DID match the description of a perp that just robbed or killed or whatever. An HONEST mistake by a cop I am willing to endure, as long as his response is within the confines of the law. If I had my nose smashed by a cop that put me on the pavement because I happened to look ALOT like an armed perp known to be on the loose near where I am, this is just bad luck. BUT -- if a cop thinks he can take me down and violate my rights for failure to ID when he cannot state an RAS, we can talk in court.

But, seriously, the odds of this happening are miniscule. And this could happen even if I am unarmed. i am more likely to be attacked by a shark than to be mistaken for a perp, statistically speaking...

 

[4sooth]

Firearm Search and Seizure/8th Circuit

Here is a good 4th Amendment case from the 8th Circuit which Missouri falls in.

U.S. v Jones (June 8, 2010)
No. 09-1731

Illegal stop and frisk, convicted felon went free even though he was in possession of a concealed handgun. Go to Findlaw and look at this case--too long for reprint here.

The detention in Wal-Mart was highly illegal and peterarthur has grounds for civil action against the dept. and the officer. See also Harlow v Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800 all public officials are required to personally know the law governing their actions so the officer can not claim ignorance. Also see U.S. v Dudley 854 F.Supp. 570 (Southern District of Indiana) Mere presence if a firearm in a state which permits same is not reason to approach or arrest.

 

[Jaysann22]

He came over to me with a quizzical look in his eye and a slight disapproving frown.

What is it about law abiding citizens carrying firearms that LEOS dont like? Well not all LEOs but many feel they have to challenge this. Why is that? Is it because the LEO doesnt feel in full control and that messes with his/her OCD? Where is the threat? It shouldnt even concern the LEO as long as you are not brandishing and/or you are not shooting innocent civilians.

 

[peterarthur]

What is it about law abiding citizens carrying firearms that LEOS dont like? Well not all LEOs but many feel they have to challenge this. Why is that? Is it because the LEO doesnt feel in full control and that messes with his/her OCD? Where is the threat? It shouldnt even concern the LEO as long as you are not brandishing and/or you are not shooting innocent civilians.

Whatever the problem is, I no longer fear them. I might eventually have a bad experience like being disarmed, cuffed and/or arrested but I will no longer submit to their on-site interrogations. Watch CheckPointUSA videos on Youtube to see how to speak to these officers. We need to stand up to this nonsense before we really DO get a police state.

And WHEN I run for the state House of Reps, one of my first bills will be for statewide pre-emption.

 

[ALOTAGLOCK]

Whatever the problem is, I no longer fear them. I might eventually have a bad experience like being disarmed, cuffed and/or arrested but I will no longer submit to their on-site interrogations. Watch CheckPointUSA videos on Youtube to see how to speak to these officers. We need to stand up to this nonsense before we really DO get a police state.

And WHEN I run for the state House of Reps, one of my first bills will be for statewide pre-emption.

I personally have never had a bad experience with an Officer. I would probably not know how to take a hostile confrontation. I would though immediately request their supervisor. I would only assume that it would be a "Young Gun" who made the mistake, and it could be corrected right there with the supervisor. I am a mild mannered guy by nature. I try to keep confrontations from getting very heated. I believe that rational people make sound decisions, and that people who get fired up are not rational. Getting a supervisor there quickly I would only say would keep the "Young gun" at least from going too far. I don't think that aggressive action to the police is going to solve anything. A personal hero of mine never used aggressive tactics. He moved a nation with peace. Of course I am talking about Martin Luther King. Forcing the hand of police officers may not be wise. I know the frustration is great. I do think that we are making the laws known though. I see it every day. More people talking about it. More officers who I meet are not acting like asses. They are approaching me with open minds and a lot of questions. So change is happening. Don't let the bad attitudes of a few Police cause rash actions on your all's part. Running for office will give you the tools to get this out in the public eye. Hell make a platform on it. I bet it will be well received. Also instead of ******* some cops off and getting arrested. Get them to support and back you. Great organizations like the Fraternal Order of Police, along with the High Patrol Unions and the NRA would give you a lot of clout. In my area if the police department backs a candidate for office in the city he/she is the winner. The people want to know who will assist in keeping their streets safe. Hinge your platform off of that. Police support me and they support you protecting yourselves. Then you know go into the whole 2A open carry. Bam! State wide coverage, and support for the cause. Which, hopefully more honest people would start participating in it. It could be the biggest movement for public safety since the fight against racism. You could take this straight to the Progressives and shove it in their faces. I bet if you wanted to go national for a U.S. seat you could even attract the Tea- Party.

Well I think I should be your campaign director, LOL just kidding I prefer the semi-anonymous help and support.

 

[ALOTAGLOCK]

What is it about law abiding citizens carrying firearms that LEOS dont like? Well not all LEOs but many feel they have to challenge this. Why is that? Is it because the LEO doesnt feel in full control and that messes with his/her OCD? Where is the threat? It shouldnt even concern the LEO as long as you are not brandishing and/or you are not shooting innocent civilians.

Mostlikely it is a new concept to them. Most may have never seen someone carrying openly. Look who they have to deal with on a regular basis. Not usually law abiding citizens. That may make them wonder why a guy with a gun is standing around. I could see that being a part of it. Plus do Police Officers deal with what is legal. Not really they deal with what is illegal.

 

[Jaysann22]

Mostlikely it is a new concept to them. Most may have never seen someone carrying openly. Look who they have to deal with on a regular basis. Not usually law abiding citizens. That may make them wonder why a guy with a gun is standing around. I could see that being a part of it. Plus do Police Officers deal with what is legal. Not really they deal with what is illegal.

Well i would hope they would deal with both. Atleast thats what i think we pay them to do. If i pay a bodyguard, i would want him to be able to defend me AND himself. So i would think police should know what is illegal and what is not so the innocent are not wrongfully accused.

 

[peterarthur]

I personally have never had a bad experience with an Officer. I would probably not know how to take a hostile confrontation. I would though immediately request their supervisor. I would only assume that it would be a "Young Gun" who made the mistake, and it could be corrected right there with the supervisor. I am a mild mannered guy by nature. I try to keep confrontations from getting very heated. I believe that rational people make sound decisions, and that people who get fired up are not rational. Getting a supervisor there quickly I would only say would keep the "Young gun" at least from going too far. I don't think that aggressive action to the police is going to solve anything. A personal hero of mine never used aggressive tactics. He moved a nation with peace. Of course I am talking about Martin Luther King. Forcing the hand of police officers may not be wise. I know the frustration is great. I do think that we are making the laws known though. I see it every day. More people talking about it. More officers who I meet are not acting like asses. They are approaching me with open minds and a lot of questions. So change is happening. Don't let the bad attitudes of a few Police cause rash actions on your all's part. Running for office will give you the tools to get this out in the public eye. Hell make a platform on it. I bet it will be well received. Also instead of ******* some cops off and getting arrested. Get them to support and back you. Great organizations like the Fraternal Order of Police, along with the High Patrol Unions and the NRA would give you a lot of clout. In my area if the police department backs a candidate for office in the city he/she is the winner. The people want to know who will assist in keeping their streets safe. Hinge your platform off of that. Police support me and they support you protecting yourselves. Then you know go into the whole 2A open carry. Bam! State wide coverage, and support for the cause. Which, hopefully more honest people would start participating in it. It could be the biggest movement for public safety since the fight against racism. You could take this straight to the Progressives and shove it in their faces. I bet if you wanted to go national for a U.S. seat you could even attract the Tea- Party.

Well I think I should be your campaign director, LOL just kidding I prefer the semi-anonymous help and support.

2A will definitely be one of my major issues as it is the guarantor of all others. Open carry will be something I promote and recommend for those who are willing. And since I happen to live in KC MO, the only "social" program I would be interested in promoting is one for literacy which is at the root of success and failure for school kids. My kids are homeschooled so most of them read before they are 5 because they have older siblings teaching them just by being with them. The public schools are FAILING and there is even a movie coming out about that now. And I happen to live in a part of the city where I am a minority surrounded by African-American neighbors who do not understand HOW their rights are being violated, only that they are. I am educating them, one at a time, in the QuikTrips and the Walmarts, and so on, that they are sovereign citizens with rights and what those rights are. Every one of them has expressed a desire for self-protection but most cannot afford the classes they THINK are required to own and carry a weapon. I have made several new friends who are getting armed and learning basic marksmanship and stand about an inch taller now. This is one way to transform the inner city, showing urban citizens that they are AMERICANS with RIGHTS and that they are not SUBJECT to the police but vice versa. They get very happy and excited when they learn that I am just an average citizen exercising my GOD given, Constitution protected rights.

BTW, the cops who have hassled me have been 30's and 40's, the young ones ignore me The worst attitude I got was from a guy in his 50's in Sugar Creek who SNEERED at me and asked me, "What are you, some kind of smart ass lawyer?"

Of course, most of the young ones probably think I am a detective. I don't even answer the question "Are you a police officer?" anymore if a cop asks it. I just start asking questions myself If a regular citizen asks me, I get to tell them, "No!" and explain their American heritage a little bit...

 

[ALOTAGLOCK]

2A will definitely be one of my major issues as it is the guarantor of all others. Open carry will be something I promote and recommend for those who are willing. And since I happen to live in KC MO, the only "social" program I would be interested in promoting is one for literacy which is at the root of success and failure for school kids. My kids are homeschooled so most of them read before they are 5 because they have older siblings teaching them just by being with them. The public schools are FAILING and there is even a movie coming out about that now. And I happen to live in a part of the city where I am a minority surrounded by African-American neighbors who do not understand HOW their rights are being violated, only that they are. I am educating them, one at a time, in the QuikTrips and the Walmarts, and so on, that they are sovereign citizens with rights and what those rights are. Every one of them has expressed a desire for self-protection but most cannot afford the classes they THINK are required to own and carry a weapon. I have made several new friends who are getting armed and learning basic marksmanship and stand about an inch taller now. This is one way to transform the inner city, showing urban citizens that they are AMERICANS with RIGHTS and that they are not SUBJECT to the police but vice versa. They get very happy and excited when they learn that I am just an average citizen exercising my GOD given, Constitution protected rights.

BTW, the cops who have hassled me have been 30's and 40's, the young ones ignore me The worst attitude I got was from a guy in his 50's in Sugar Creek who SNEERED at me and asked me, "What are you, some kind of smart ass lawyer?"

Of course, most of the young ones probably think I am a detective. I don't even answer the question "Are you a police officer?" anymore if a cop asks it. I just start asking questions myself If a regular citizen asks me, I get to tell them, "No!" and explain their American heritage a little bit...

Good on taking the steps to help your community. Praise that someone is. Sorry to here that it is veteran officers with the issues. You would think time would lead to experience, but I guess not.

 

[peterarthur]

Good on taking the steps to help your community. Praise that someone is. Sorry to here that it is veteran officers with the issues. You would think time would lead to experience, but I guess not.

I think that the young ones may disagree with me also but may feel tentative asking if I am an officer (in case I am). The older ones are probably more used to asking these kinds of questions and speaking their minds, I am guessing.