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Officer found not quilty.

OC for ME

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Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
11,934
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White Oak Plantation
Only a myopic idiot (or someone who hates others more than he loves his own self interest) ...
We will always be "judged by what can be learned well after the incident is over" and cops are subject to the exact same scrutiny. What is not exactly the same is the 72 hour rule that is common for cops and not us, cop union protections (lawyer and PR), blue wall of silence, QI for cops and prosecutors, absolute immunity for judges. Terry v. Ohio that enables a cop to violate rights even unintentionally.

More prosecution of cops will not work, but increased procedural pressure and legislative burdens on cops should go far in reducing the shoot first mindset that some cop shops have yet to eliminate.

... How many personal, official interactions have you had with the police in your life? In how many did the officer give you a reasonable man fear that your life or limb were in danger?
I have one just about every week, different days of course, while getting my morning coffee at my preferred c-store. The same cop asks to see my permit to OC (see RSMo 21.750.3). I comply and go on about my business. The next contact could be that contact, so, do I not worry about it until that bad contact happens or, like cops should be doing, expect the worst for every contact.

I simply don't see the evidence ...
Is he violating the law? Nope. Is he violating my rights? Depends on your view of the law as it is written today. Is it wrong? I guess it depends on your perspective of what is reasonable.

I have filed complaints and have yet to hear a response. In one instance, last December, I was at the cop shop to complain and held the door for the chief to enter, and when asked to see him about a complaint two minutes later, I was told he was not in that day.

There is always that one cop somewhere. I don't have any issues with any other cop in my local cop shop. He remains on the job and continues to request my permit when he sees me.

I guess I could pack up the family and move elsewhere, this is a free country after all.
 

WalkingWolf

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Jul 31, 2011
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11,898
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North Carolina
Let's assume there is only one bad cop in the country, how many contacts can he have in a year, a month, a week, a day?

If it saves just one law abiding citizen...
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

Regular Member
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Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,141
Location
northern wis
I think most LEO dept. needs to review their hiring practice and raise the bar of standards and proper training....training.....training..
But that would do away with minority hires of all types.

How much training is enough that is a question asked by training and standard boards across the country.

Training costs money and takes away time and money from other duties.

Then what type of training, too much of one type, takes away from the other types.

It is always a battle between the budget and perceived need.

I sat on my departments training board. It was always interesting what training section got what, some had to go to state or court mandated training.

The rest among all the other types there is never a shortage of the type of training one could spend money on to improve your officers training.

So it comes down to time and money or money and time.
 

OC for ME

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White Oak Plantation
But that would do away with minority hires of all types.

How much training is enough that is a question asked by training and standard boards across the country.

Training costs money and takes away time and money from other duties.

Then what type of training, too much of one type, takes away from the other types.

It is always a battle between the budget and perceived need.

I sat on my departments training board. It was always interesting what training section got what, some had to go to state or court mandated training.

The rest among all the other types there is never a shortage of the type of training one could spend money on to improve your officers training.

So it comes down to time and money or money and time.
I don't see many minority officers much past the urban core boundaries. In other words, the farther out from the urban center the fewer minority officers I have seen for any given department. How would more stringent training standards impact these departments that may not have one minority officer.
 

FreedomVA

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Jul 25, 2017
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FreedomVA
But that would do away with minority hires of all types.

Hire base on characters of the officers and not their race. Leave Jim Crow out of this.

How much training is enough that is a question asked by training and standard boards across the country.

A: Not all shoes fit everyone foot, it is up to the trainer to properly qualified a trainee and not base on hrs in a classroom. Remember when teachers in classroom spent extra time with that kid that needed it and that kid became a better leaner?

Training costs money and takes away time and money from other duties.

A: It costs tax payers and PD more in the long run if they don't. Also it will make the PD look like fools. As my belief, take the extra 5 mins. to do something right vs. spending hours fixing it when it breaks.
Then what type of training, too much of one type, takes away from the other types.
A: Situational awareness training and it should be reviewed or renew every year. Human and their behaviors is not static, it's dynamic and public servants need to evolve to deal with it.
(example:) Do you still wear bell bottom pants from the 70's or still dance to Disco when going to a club now with oil sheen? No, because evolution of music and other influences in social society evolved to "Yo MTV Rap" and the bell bottom pants has given to side ward wearing baseball cap.

In this officer case, i don't think the officer have had enough training in citizens interaction and she overreacted leading to the outcome.

Just a thought, maybe have rotational assignments to different neighborhoods in their district to learn how to deal with all type of citizens and not be static.


Or dispatch for an officers (when in a traffic stop) that is the same race as he/she, i would think this alone would prevented a lot these type of incident.

It is always a battle between the budget and perceived need.

A: look @ my 3rd answer.

I sat on my departments training board. It was always interesting what training section got what, some had to go to state or court mandated training.

The rest among all the other types there is never a shortage of the type of training one could spend money on to improve your officers training.

So it comes down to time and money or money and time.

Yes, but i see most PD nowadays spend more money on military style fire power and armories, do most PD need that much fire power to protect it citizens or is there another bigger agendas there?
 
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MamaLiberty

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Nov 8, 2006
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895
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
Then what type of training, too much of one type, takes away from the other types.
Probably true in any profession. The question is: What "training," and who decides what is good and necessary? Then there is the fact that no amount or kind of training can turn a psycho or egomaniac into an honest, moral person. If the training indoctrinates them with a "Us vs. Them" attitude, with wholesale disdain for mere "civilians" whom are all considered criminals of some sort or another regardless... you will get whole barrels of "bad apples."

I'm wondering how many here actually know their local sheriff, deputies, police and their chiefs personally. At least superficially. Might make a real difference. Why wait for them to become central figures in the "news?" I know all of the local peace officers here. We don't have any "cops." I've taught the CCW classes for the sheriff almost 10 years. The deputies and some of the police officers come out to shoot with us, they are part of our community, belong to our clubs and organizations, and their children go to school with everyone else. I don't know what the answer would be for folks who live in a big city, of course. Maybe a little less "Us vs. Them" on our part would help some? If every "cop" is treated as a bad apple to start with, what incentive do they have to be anything else? Just brainstorming here... I don't have all the answers by any means. And no one answer fits all...
 

MamaLiberty

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895
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Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
How would more stringent training standards impact these departments
Why should minority status have ANYTHING at all to do with training standards? And that includes women. If they can't DO the job right, they shouldn't be there. The key is not their minority status, but what is being required of everyone. And there are specialty jobs that not everyone can qualify for... but that's not a matter of minority status either, but intelligence and education.
 
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Firearms Iinstuctor

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Jul 12, 2011
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northern wis

Yes, but i see most PD nowadays spend more money on military style fire power and armories, do most PD need that much fire power to protect it citizens or is there another bigger agendas there?
All departments I know have to have their budgets approved by some sort of legislated body. IE town boards, city counsels, county boards or the state legislator's for state department's.

They are the ones with the power of the purse.

Maybe one needs to be looking at who actuals controls the pocket book.

If a department has a minority population in its jurisdiction there is pressure on them to meet affirmative action goals.

If they do or not remains to be seen. But a lot of departments go out of their way to hire so called minorities just so they can say see we did.

If we look hard enough one can always find exemptions to any thing.

So we add more : Situational awareness training and it should be reviewed or renew every year. Human and their behaviors is not static, it's dynamic and public servants need to evolve to deal with it.

What training that they do now days would you cut. Or would you just add to their training takes time and money.

So if any one of you want to have big impact of your local law enforcement run for the governing board get elected then put on the police and fire committee and have at it.

Or go to every committee meeting and let your voice be heard or even better take 10 friends with you.

In a small town or city one very active board member can make a huge difference.

My local board only has 4 members one member is 25 percent of the total vote.

Seems to be those with the most complaints on how something is being run should make it a priority in their lives to do something about it.

Besides complain how bad it is.
 

FreedomVA

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Jul 25, 2017
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452
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FreedomVA
i am not a LEO, politicians or in LEO business, I can only express my opinion as a citizen what i see is not happening in the LEO communities and what has changed though out these few decades and i have to admit the QC is not there.

I did not chose to be a LEO as my profession, but i thank those LEO who chose their profession as i know it's a risky profession to be in.
 
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Firearms Iinstuctor

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,141
Location
northern wis
i am not a LEO, politicians or in LEO business, I can only express my opinion as a citizen what i see is not happening in the LEO communities and what has changed though out these few decades and i have to admit the QC is not there.

.
Express all you want but if you really want to see change one needs to get involved.
 

utbagpiper

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Jul 5, 2006
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Utah
I'm wondering how many here actually know their local sheriff, deputies, police and their chiefs personally. At least superficially. Might make a real difference. Why wait for them to become central figures in the "news?" I know all of the local peace officers here. We don't have any "cops." I've taught the CCW classes for the sheriff almost 10 years. The deputies and some of the police officers come out to shoot with us, they are part of our community, belong to our clubs and organizations, and their children go to school with everyone else. I don't know what the answer would be for folks who live in a big city, of course. Maybe a little less "Us vs. Them" on our part would help some? If every "cop" is treated as a bad apple to start with, what incentive do they have to be anything else? Just brainstorming here... I don't have all the answers by any means. And no one answer fits all...
A great point. The Us vs Them attitude can originate on either side of the aisle. The private citizen gun carrier needs to make sure he isn't guilty of creating, perpetuating, or escalating any such attitude. We are then in a much stronger position to work on avoiding such attitudes from the police officers and departments.

In the small town where I grew up I knew several of our officers. In my current town, not so much; though we've not had problems with any hostility to OCers. A neighbor is a fairly high ranking police official, but not in our town. He serves in the department of another city that is nearby. This situation is actually quite common in my area where a lot of police officers live in a different jurisdiction than where they work.

We do have several prominent RKBA activists in Utah who are very well known and respected by the peace officer community. It makes a huge difference politically. Even when common agreement cannot be reached on a bill, there is a very different tone between, "They want us to all get killed," and "We have some disagreements about the effects of this bill."
 
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Glock 1st fan

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Nov 1, 2012
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312
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United States
Interestingly I havent seen many people post from oklahoma in here. Shelby was cleared by the courts but the circumstances have left a cloud of distrust over the city. The police no longer trust the D.A. or their own command staff, the D.A. has a dirty reputation now stemming from both sides. Both because he lost the case and because he presented the case. And there are the citizens divided. Many of our citizens believe she was in the right while many more believe she was in the wrong.

Make no mistake the smoke has cleared and the dust has settled but what hasnt is the fact that this will have lingering tensions as a result.
 
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OC for ME

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Jan 6, 2010
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White Oak Plantation
Why should minority status have ANYTHING at all to do with training standards? And that includes women. If they can't DO the job right, they shouldn't be there. The key is not their minority status, but what is being required of everyone. And there are specialty jobs that not everyone can qualify for... but that's not a matter of minority status either, but intelligence and education.
You are asking the wrong guy, ask Firearms Iinstuctor.

Firearms Iinstuctor stated that it would. He was responding to a post by FreedomVA's call for higher hiring standards and more training.

He was in law enforcement so he needs to explain this to us.
 

solus

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Aug 22, 2013
Messages
7,856
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here nc
Step in do do and move up in prestige ~ sigh!!

"Betty Shelby, the Tulsa (OK) officer who was acquitted of a first-degree manslaughter charge stemming from her controversial fatal shooting of a resistant but unarmed black man, has resigned from Tulsa PD and has been hired by a sheriff who was highly critical of her prosecution.

After her acquittal last May, Shelby’s department assigned her to “administrative” desk duty, but in a public statement announcing her resignation recently, she said, “I have found that sitting behind a desk, isolated from all my fellow officers and the citizens of Tulsa, is just not for me.”


When Sheriff Scott Walton of nearby Rogers County offered her a job with full law enforcement duties, she accepted, opting to work initially as a volunteer reserve deputy. This allows her to fulfill speaking engagement commitments and other outside personal obligations until a full-time assignment is practical...."



One hopes Sheriff Walton (privately wondering if the sheriff's first name is 'john-boy"?) is not saddled w/someone who does not bring shame to his department!
 
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