ConditionThree
State Pioneer
http://youtu.be/GnO1An-RK_A
No more school zone issues. No more (b) checks.
No more school zone issues. No more (b) checks.
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Open Carrier Develops LUCC Rig - Video
- Thread starter ConditionThree
- Start date
good for you!!
Very nice job! I wondered how long it would take for this to happen. I am working on a hybrid holster design myself that leaves no doubt what is inside, but meets the law requirement. Just a couple of thoughts on possible improvements. Since speed of access is EVERYTHING, I think if you are going to use a key lock system, it should be on the top of the box, so the key can stay inside the lock when carrying, and only removed when not carrying. Tell me if I am wrong, but the law says it must be in a lockable box, it does not say the box has to be locked. Even if the law says it must be locked, a key in the lock in the closed position satisfies the law. That box could also serve as a mounting system for a small camera..... just thinking ahead for the inevitable LEO "meeting", at which point you would remove the key prior to LEO contact. I would also put one of those stickers on the box that say that "I do not ever consent to the search of the personal property inside this container or on my person", and then just shut up (which seems the hardest for most people to do)and say nothing about the contents.
Very nice job! I wondered how long it would take for this to happen. I am working on a hybrid holster design myself that leaves no doubt what is inside, but meets the law requirement. Just a couple of thoughts on possible improvements. Since speed of access is EVERYTHING, I think if you are going to use a key lock system, it should be on the top of the box, so the key can stay inside the lock when carrying, and only removed when not carrying. Tell me if I am wrong, but the law says it must be in a lockable box, it does not say the box has to be locked. Even if the law says it must be locked, a key in the lock in the closed position satisfies the law. That box could also serve as a mounting system for a small camera..... just thinking ahead for the inevitable LEO "meeting", at which point you would remove the key prior to LEO contact. I would also put one of those stickers on the box that say that "I do not ever consent to the search of the personal property inside this container or on my person", and then just shut up (which seems the hardest for most people to do)and say nothing about the contents.
ConditionThree
State Pioneer
1) The law says a fully enclosed, locked (present tense) container.
2) A decal like this?
MudCamper
Founder's Club Member
Nice! I especially like how the internal holster drops open to give you easy access.
Now just make it with a fingerprint reader lock, change it to a fashionable glossy leather, offer it in a variety of sizes (preferably smaller), and you have yourself a product that will sell very well.
Now just make it with a fingerprint reader lock, change it to a fashionable glossy leather, offer it in a variety of sizes (preferably smaller), and you have yourself a product that will sell very well.
So I thought I would run this by people here and get there opinions. I have been designing a locking carry case using the principles listed.
1)Secure- as some soft cases can still allow manipulation of the contents (magazine into magwell, pulling trigger) my case is a rigid leather pouch, similar to the thickness and rigidness of a leather holster, or leather saddlebag for a motorcycle, so no means to manipulate the firearm or mag from the outside.
2)Fully enclosed- it will be stitched together with no space to allow finger insertion and a sewn in zipper, it will be placed on the interior lining of a bulky jacket, in the Napoleon pocket position.
3)Locked- the Zipper is a special key lock that renders zipper immovable requiring tools to unlock or cut or break it open.
This soft case will replace the Napolean pocket on a oversized jacket I own. So in essence it is a secured locking zippered rigid pouch allowing me to carry the handgun on my person, so long as its not loaded it meets the requirements of LUCC, mags can be stored elsewhere for easy left hand access. Storing the key in a secret pocket on the right sleeve edge, I should be able to access draw rack and load for self defense in 3-5 seconds, not exactly best for immediate confrontation but its better than nothing at all, it also has the extra added bonus of being inconspicuous and concealed, not an obvious pouch on the belt.
The extra bonus is the Zipper, which has the lock integral to the pull tab, the zipper can be locked in any position from fully closed to fully open and it will only allow the zipper to close, it will not go backwards to open... SO if I find myself in a "potential" situation I could quietly unlock the zipper, unzip it fully and relock it. if the threat materializes im quicker to the draw/load/rack, if there is no threat I can simply pull up the zipper and close the pocket and it locks automatically.
Its no longer Open Carry, but it is a bastardized California version of LEGALLY carrying concealed. Will more than likely never draw police or fearful sheeple attention, and If i ever did get stopped and searched its a secure fully enclosed locked case per the penal code requirements.
Feedback is appreciated.
1)Secure- as some soft cases can still allow manipulation of the contents (magazine into magwell, pulling trigger) my case is a rigid leather pouch, similar to the thickness and rigidness of a leather holster, or leather saddlebag for a motorcycle, so no means to manipulate the firearm or mag from the outside.
2)Fully enclosed- it will be stitched together with no space to allow finger insertion and a sewn in zipper, it will be placed on the interior lining of a bulky jacket, in the Napoleon pocket position.
3)Locked- the Zipper is a special key lock that renders zipper immovable requiring tools to unlock or cut or break it open.
This soft case will replace the Napolean pocket on a oversized jacket I own. So in essence it is a secured locking zippered rigid pouch allowing me to carry the handgun on my person, so long as its not loaded it meets the requirements of LUCC, mags can be stored elsewhere for easy left hand access. Storing the key in a secret pocket on the right sleeve edge, I should be able to access draw rack and load for self defense in 3-5 seconds, not exactly best for immediate confrontation but its better than nothing at all, it also has the extra added bonus of being inconspicuous and concealed, not an obvious pouch on the belt.
The extra bonus is the Zipper, which has the lock integral to the pull tab, the zipper can be locked in any position from fully closed to fully open and it will only allow the zipper to close, it will not go backwards to open... SO if I find myself in a "potential" situation I could quietly unlock the zipper, unzip it fully and relock it. if the threat materializes im quicker to the draw/load/rack, if there is no threat I can simply pull up the zipper and close the pocket and it locks automatically.
Its no longer Open Carry, but it is a bastardized California version of LEGALLY carrying concealed. Will more than likely never draw police or fearful sheeple attention, and If i ever did get stopped and searched its a secure fully enclosed locked case per the penal code requirements.
Feedback is appreciated.
paramedic70002
Regular Member
Firemark,
Interesting idea. I'm not familiar with Cali's gun laws so can't speak to that. I imagine that a coat heavy enough to support the weight and bulk would have limited use in sunny Cali.
As far as marketing it elsewhere, in VA the concealed Code (http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-308.HTM) specifies that firearms (no distinction of loaded or unloaded) are only legally concealed ("Wrapped" is their term) for certain activities, such as transporting to/from the range or gunsmith. I think you're on to something, and it is viable, but you're not there yet with the best product possible.
Good luck to both of you!
.......
VA 18.2-308 says in part:
Interesting idea. I'm not familiar with Cali's gun laws so can't speak to that. I imagine that a coat heavy enough to support the weight and bulk would have limited use in sunny Cali.
As far as marketing it elsewhere, in VA the concealed Code (http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-308.HTM) specifies that firearms (no distinction of loaded or unloaded) are only legally concealed ("Wrapped" is their term) for certain activities, such as transporting to/from the range or gunsmith. I think you're on to something, and it is viable, but you're not there yet with the best product possible.
Good luck to both of you!
.......
VA 18.2-308 says in part:
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paramedic70002
Regular Member
Condition3,
You might want to patent that design pronto. It's obvious to me that you altered an existing car safe (I have a couple of them) but you could always have your own design manufactured, incorporating the previous suggestions for improvement. Unfortunately, to carry a regular sized gun, the metal box is going to be a pain to wear, and IWB is out of the question. A smaller box for a smaller gun may be the answer.
Nice job!
You might want to patent that design pronto. It's obvious to me that you altered an existing car safe (I have a couple of them) but you could always have your own design manufactured, incorporating the previous suggestions for improvement. Unfortunately, to carry a regular sized gun, the metal box is going to be a pain to wear, and IWB is out of the question. A smaller box for a smaller gun may be the answer.
Nice job!
ConditionThree
State Pioneer
The person in the video is not me.
Born2Lose
Regular Member
I met that guy at the San Diego Long Gun carry in PB. I'm horrible with remembering names.
Sent from behind enemy lines using a Commodore 64.
Joshua Costa
Activist Member
I counted 7 seconds to make ready. Not bad for this nanny state.
But I will still be carrying a long gun come January until the the courts give us concealed carry.
But I will still be carrying a long gun come January until the the courts give us concealed carry.
davesnothere
Regular Member
Anyone have pics? I'm in the ME, and my provider won't allow streaming video.
OC4me
Regular Member
1) The law says a fully enclosed, locked (present tense) container.
2) A decal like this?
Good idea but the decal itself leaves no doubt that the box might contain a firearm. Why give the LEO anything to go on? Easy to fix though with scissors ;-)
Felid`Maximus
Activist Member
If you could make the cover transparent, it would potentially alleviate legal issues.
legal question?
OC4ME, I think if you remove the bottom part of the warning sticker below the line where it has all the CalGuns info, it would be much better warning label.
If you are carrying ammo in a magazine openly exposed, I don't think it is a stretch for a officer to demand a 12031e check, even though you don't admit you have a gun with you inside the locked container. If you do in fact have a gun on you and you refuse upon demand to unlock the case for a LEO, I would think you would still be arrestable for the failure to comply with the 12031e check, even if the LEO had to get a search warrant to see inside. The courts give LEO's wide birth when it comes down to "if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck......" situations,especially involving weapons. If the locked container has the size and weight that could hold a handgun, along with visible ammo, seems you would have to comply with the weapons check demand, short of **unintentionally** "loosing" the key or "forgetting" the combination to the lock. Also if a LEO asks to see inside a locked container you should always ask him"are you requesting or demanding I open it". Never open it if it is a request (voluntary), only open upon demand(not voluntary). If the LEo says demand, ask if you are going to get arrested if you don't unlock it. If yes, open it, if NO, you are not getting arrested then don't open it. This protects you search and seizure rights and makes the search clearly under duress.
Until someone is willing to get arrested for failure to comply to 12031e, and the locked container is empty, or just has a piece of fruit or other non-threatening property, and sues and wins, this situation be a part of unsettled law. Maybe the A.G. will issue a legal opinion on this matter if a DA or police chief asks them to.
OC4ME, I think if you remove the bottom part of the warning sticker below the line where it has all the CalGuns info, it would be much better warning label.
If you are carrying ammo in a magazine openly exposed, I don't think it is a stretch for a officer to demand a 12031e check, even though you don't admit you have a gun with you inside the locked container. If you do in fact have a gun on you and you refuse upon demand to unlock the case for a LEO, I would think you would still be arrestable for the failure to comply with the 12031e check, even if the LEO had to get a search warrant to see inside. The courts give LEO's wide birth when it comes down to "if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck......" situations,especially involving weapons. If the locked container has the size and weight that could hold a handgun, along with visible ammo, seems you would have to comply with the weapons check demand, short of **unintentionally** "loosing" the key or "forgetting" the combination to the lock. Also if a LEO asks to see inside a locked container you should always ask him"are you requesting or demanding I open it". Never open it if it is a request (voluntary), only open upon demand(not voluntary). If the LEo says demand, ask if you are going to get arrested if you don't unlock it. If yes, open it, if NO, you are not getting arrested then don't open it. This protects you search and seizure rights and makes the search clearly under duress.
Until someone is willing to get arrested for failure to comply to 12031e, and the locked container is empty, or just has a piece of fruit or other non-threatening property, and sues and wins, this situation be a part of unsettled law. Maybe the A.G. will issue a legal opinion on this matter if a DA or police chief asks them to.
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ConditionThree
State Pioneer
The case could have "GUN" stenciled on it in six inch tall letters, but that doesnt mean that there is one inside the case. The (b) checks (formerly "(e) checks") were imposed because the inspection fell under the plain view doctrine. If the officer did not see a firearm in plain view and they do not have a corroborating witness telling them that they saw a gun being put inside the case, the officer can ask if there is a firearm in the case (or other contraband) but he still does not have justification for a search. The proper response is to decline answering questions and refuse consent to a search.
The officer or deputy is then stuck with nothing by which to advance a legitimate investigation. The case, I believe is outside the scope of a 'Terry' frisk. They can articulate that they suspect that an individual might have a firearm in a locked case, but opening the locked case raises the (b) check from an 'inspection' to a full-on 4th Amendment 'search'.
How does a peace officer conduct a search without RAS that a crime is being or about to be commited? You get the individual to open the case for you. There is little doubt that they will threaten that you will be arrested for suspicion of possesion of a loaded weapon- but in the event they do so, and they force the case open and discover that there is no firearm or that the firearm IS lawfully transported, they have just thrown themselves and their department under the bus for destroying your property while conducting an illegal search in an investigation of a non-crime.
So, ask me what I will do in the event I am stopped by police while transporting my handgun LUCC... Just take a guess.
EXTREMEOPS1
Campaign Veteran
I'll still be carrying my remington 870 or AR15 upto and after 1/1/2012
I have been carrying both (alternately not together) since the meetup in PB other than a few terrified looks from the "unarmed citizens of california" I have had no 12031e checks, no LE encounters so I guess I have been lucky or operating in "stealth mode" lol . Personally I don't think I will be buying or using this particular "manbag" but if that is the only option available to legal handgun owners in california (until the courts give orders to start issuing concealed weapons permits to all) then so be it. Come 1/1/12 I'd still prefer to carry my handgun in my locked backpack. ... Just a personal preference.
I have been carrying both (alternately not together) since the meetup in PB other than a few terrified looks from the "unarmed citizens of california" I have had no 12031e checks, no LE encounters so I guess I have been lucky or operating in "stealth mode" lol . Personally I don't think I will be buying or using this particular "manbag" but if that is the only option available to legal handgun owners in california (until the courts give orders to start issuing concealed weapons permits to all) then so be it. Come 1/1/12 I'd still prefer to carry my handgun in my locked backpack. ... Just a personal preference.
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cato
Newbie
Just don't go on school property with the ammo. I wonder if the open mag creates 'Hale' liabilities?