Opposing ERPO Red Flag Law(lessnes)s

[HP995]

ERPO is part of the Triad and a potential threat to anyone. These "temporarily" bypass due process for the supposed sake of safety. Heavily promoted post-Parkland.

GOA seems to be on top of the issue:

https://gunowners.org/emergency-confiscation-is-easy-target-in-new-gun-control-congress.htm

Opponents warn that "red flag" orders can be abused and violate due process. So why are they attracting Republican support?

And expect the judges to sign off on most if not all of them: “When you are the only guys in the room you can get the judge to sign a ham sandwich.

https://gunowners.org/goa-rebukes-trump-s-inclusion-of-gun-confiscation-in-school-safety-report.htm

Gun Owners of America (GOA) is opposing President Donald Trump’s inclusion Gun Confiscation Orders (sugar-coated as “red-flag laws”) in his Commission on School Safety Report.

My take: there is a need for safety, but safety does not require bypassing due process. Parkland occurred not because of lacking tools, but because of official regional government plans and programs designed to bypass safety in favor of other social goals, together with regional government corruption reducing competency. Thus ERPO is not a solution for the problem, it's an agenda for which the problem was an opportunity to promote.

ERPO is gaining popularity. It can affect everyone, certainly including OCers. Of the Triad (Bump, ERPO, Age 21) it's the one with the most potential to affect all varieties and demographics of gun owners. What's the best way to oppose it?

Besides contacting WH and Congress, I think I will be keeping up my membership in GOA, if it has lapsed I will renew it. They are currently active on Bump, ERPO, and other issues. With a larger membership, they might be a good path to improvements. (Ya think?)

 

[Doug_Nightmare]

Be careful. My gun-life goals changed after I spoke out against the hegemony. Best wishes.

 

[color of law]

Red flag laws are pure evil!

 

[solus]

HP995 could you explain how GOA has stopping anything?

Have you reviewed GOA’s alert site to see how active they are in opposing this national initiative..I’ll wait...

13 states, passed and active.
2 states was under consideration
35 states no laws [17 tried but the initiative died]

Further in the statutory jargon from the states I have reviewed, i keep seeing that only a JUDGE can impose any type of firearm confiscation order, therefore while not perfect, the individual is afforded a minimal due process!

As for the causality of Parkland, doesn’t it seem odd to anybody that at age 16 while attending a special needs educational institute had his medical cleared so the individual is then mainstreamed into a ‘normal’ community HS. Further, HS tolerated the individual until 18, then threw him out since,their is no statutory mandate to ‘force him’ to attend, this coupled with the death of his single caregiver, mightmhave been a bit more than this MH impaired individual to handle!

Also, the BS ERPO was misattributed and incorrectly rationalized to the above scenario.

 

[HP995]

Yes Solus, IOW:

Parkland occurred not because of lacking tools, but because of official regional government plans and programs designed to bypass safety in favor of other social goals, together with regional government corruption reducing competency. Thus ERPO is not a solution for the problem, it's an agenda for which the problem was an opportunity to promote. - (HP995)

Regarding perp and MH, criminality and mental health may overlap, but are two distinct issues which I would not want to conflate. (If you disagree, we'd likely only need institutions; all prisons could close. All prisoners would need mental treatment.) Florida officials decided to give certain categories of students second chances for misbehavior and crime, and keep the law off their backs and their records. They ignored many incidents and warning signs with this individual, and he was only one of many individuals affected by the program. Could have been worse. (Sez HP995.)

ERPO was embraced as a fake excuse by those officials to shift the blame (didn't have tools we needed) away from themselves while promoting the usual more guv/less Constitution agenda. Judges are involved, but threshold is low and skirting due process (for safety and guvtools) is the whole idea. Otherwise no need to put ERPO in place. They already had all the legal tools needed; it was their own program that explicitly directed LE and schools to ignore problems. This ERPO is more guv perks and fewer rights for us.

GOA looks more aligned with reality and Constitution than NRA. If you know something better at the national level, I'm eager to know. Thanks. If NRA can't stop flirting with the dark side, it would be good to shift some of its membership to a more effective group. Nothing against NRA other than their own weak positions, I've supported them before and I will cheer them on whenever they come back to the fold.

 

[color of law]

........
Further in the statutory jargon from the states I have reviewed, i keep seeing that only a JUDGE can impose any type of firearm confiscation order, therefore while not perfect, the individual is afforded a minimal due process!

"[O]nly a JUDGE can impose any type of firearm confiscation order" is of little consolation. If the victim is not found to be a danger the return of their property is an arduous process. And, the accuser pays no price for filing a false complaint.

 

[KBCraig]

Further in the statutory jargon from the states I have reviewed, i keep seeing that only a JUDGE can impose any type of firearm confiscation order, therefore while not perfect, the individual is afforded a minimal due process!

The War On (Some) Drugs has taught us how meaningless judicial approval is: if the police want it, they'll find a judge to grant it.

We only have to look to Vermont's recently-enacted ERPO to see how this turns out.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2...oting-and-police-confiscate-a-relatives-guns/

 

[solus]

As this august membership has in the past discussed agenda self-promoting & biased newspeek op-ed, I find it quite discerning the info regarding ERPOs is coming from 'the truth about guns' or 'gun owners' and yes NRA's propaganda mill, who also have profit center interest(s) in keeping the "OMGoodness look what xyz is doing now to our firearm rights" kettle boiling!

Yes KB, you are right...so now that you are seated in the VT NH [solus NOTE 30 dec 18, changed to proper State and apoligies to member for the error in a post below] Legislature how are you going to advocate against the practice?
Especially since KB, the truth about guns writer stated, quote:

According to the news report and the law as written, the actions taken by law enforcement were illegal and should have been prevented by the presiding judge. unquote.

so is the honourable legislative member going to raise the alarm?

 

[solus]

"[O]nly a JUDGE can impose any type of firearm confiscation order" is of little consolation. If the victim is not found to be a danger the return of their property is an arduous process. And, the accuser pays no price for filing a false complaint.

CoL, you are absolutely correct on all your points, but...

1. those that call in bogus 991 reports suffer no repercussions whatsoever;

2. also consider MH practitioners have had the power to 'commit' citizens, normally their clients, on a MH hold [normally three day clinical evaluation by another disinterested party but qualified MH practitioner] for years, and the stink arising from the initial practice was horrific at best, but especially when ethnic biases in the south were applied.

 

[OC Freedom]

If you live in one of these states, then it would be wise to be able to effectively conceal and secure your property from government theft. This is an activity I practice masterfully. Guns? what guns?

 

[OC for ME]

Change the law to hold a judge criminally and civilly liable if a false claim for EPRO is authorized by said judge...oops. sorry, I forgot judges enjoy absolute immunity...shrinks enjoy a close second to judges.

Cops will kill you to take your guns while waving that EPRO in the air before them.

 

[solus]

If you live in one of these states, then it would be wise to be able to effectively conceal and secure your property from government theft. This is an activity I practice masterfully. Guns? what guns?

Ya’ll deny and hide them their guns, personally i would worry bout the nice LEs invoking ex parte civil property forfeiture [aka POLICING for PROFIT] of your $$$, property, ad nauseam. Statutorily mandated in most of this here Nation’s States.

For your reading pleasure, https://www.ij.org/report/policing-for-profit/

Now, this is out and out robbery by those designated to ‘serve & protect’ as all the folks in blue need to do is write their affidavits to give the perception the $$$$ or property was ‘confiscated’ from those familiar with drug trafficking...yet another dated but subject relative article. https://jalopnik.com/5913416/cops-can-confiscate-money-and-property-from-law-abiding-citizens

Ya, you are quite correct OC for ME, QI flows quite well through this concocted LE scheme used to fund some LE agencies, since some 80% of the confiscated value stays in the LE’s coffers!

 

[HP995]

We (USA) need to get LE and civilians back on the same team and equal under the law. That's not easy but it would help.

 

[OC for ME]

Cops are not military, cops do not consider themselves civilians...unfortunate.

 

[HP995]

And thanks to a WND article posted by CoL, I learned that the Firearms Policy Coalition exists. Like GOA it also is fighting ERPO, bump ban, and others. So that would be another good one to support, potentially.

GOA: 1.5 million members
FPC: (Anyone know how big FPC is?)

Any other good national groups that are taking action on ERPO?

1.5m for GOA versus 5m for NRA; that's not a huge ratio. The biggest non-NRA group(s) could potentially grow big enough to be considered the premiere voice if 2A supporters educated enough fellow gun owners.

 

[KBCraig]

Yes KB, you are right...so now that you are seated in the VT Legislature how are you going to advocate against the practice?

Your geography is no more accurate than your verbosity.

 

[solus]

Your geography is no more accurate than your verbosity.

KB, please forgive the slight, but truth be told, during 6th > 8th grade rote memorization in George Emerson Old Grandmother Rode A Pig Home Yesterday [geography] is how i learned to mnemonicly spell the word oh so many many years ago where i was continuously unsuccessfully in class at attributed the capitols to their states or pointing to the states on a blank outlined US map or putting those idiotic politically nicknames to the states during those lesson periods.

It is one of my many rote memorization flaw(s) [i didn’t recite Lincoln’s Gettysburg address nor Poe’s poem or successful learning a foreign language either] i have been burdened with a spatial brain that is logical verses abstract for all of the decades so i have walked this earth i also cannot spell worth a crap ~ two, too, to; or their, there, they’re; because I lived before Sesame Street and linguistic phonetics became the norm! [one reason i firmly believe those responsible for initial spell checkers should be given Nobel prizes for their work long ago]

FYI I to this day, do not engage in further rote memorization activities since episodic encoding of junk takes up too much long term memory space and causes forgetfulness [dementia] as one matures.

BTW KB, please look, as I did change my post above just now so you are now associated with the appropiate State’s Legislature.

Finally KB, please, in the future I would certainly appreciate it if I inadvertantly misspelled or misattribute sailent information in any posts directly affecting you that you tell me and trust me when i state, the misspelling/misattribution was not an intentional slight but rather due to an early educational rote memorization issue!

 

[color of law]

KB, please forgive the slight, but truth be told, during 6th > 8th grade rote memorization in George Emerson Old Grandmother Rode A Pig Home Yesterday [geography] is how i learned to mnemonicly spell the word oh so many many years ago where i was continuously unsuccessfully in class at attributed the capitols to their states or pointing to the states on a blank outlined US map or putting those idiotic politically nicknames to the states during those lesson periods.

It is one of my many rote memorization flaw(s) [i didn’t recite Lincoln’s Gettysburg address nor Poe’s poem or successful learning a foreign language either] i have been burdened with a spatial brain that is logical verses abstract for all of the decades so i have walked this earth i also cannot spell worth a crap ~ two, too, to; or their, there, they’re; because I lived before Sesame Street and linguistic phonetics became the norm! [one reason i firmly believe those responsible for initial spell checkers should be given Nobel prizes for their work long ago]

FYI I to this day, do not engage in further rote memorization activities since episodic encoding of junk takes up too much long term memory space and causes forgetfulness [dementia] as one matures.

BTW KB, please look, as I did change my post above just now so you are now associated with the appropiate State’s Legislature.

Finally KB, please, in the future I would certainly appreciate it if I inadvertantly misspelled or misattribute sailent information in any posts directly affecting you that you tell me and trust me when i state, the misspelling/misattribution was not an intentional slight but rather due to an early educational rote memorization issue!

This is one of the longest apologies, containing an explanation, I have read in a long time. KB, I would acknowledge the apology because they come few and far between. I would accept it like I would any sunny and warm weekend day.....