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Police officer tactics/OC'er counter tactics during "interactions".

Citizen

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WalkingWolf

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Not every cop is a bad cop, and if you as a citizen do not know your rights, and exert them that is not their fault. Of course cops use complacency to their advantage. You would, and I would, car salesmen do it all the time. Just like buying a gun. If you don't do your research and get legally screwed it is your fault. Back when Jimmy Carter was president I stood up to the FBI several times, and they WERE out to get us. If you have done nothing wrong and take the proper steps to protect yourself and know your rights it is highly unlikely the officer will grab your arm when you walk away.

Hell twice I bitch slapped cops, once as a police officer, and the other time as a dock master for a marina. The first incident the officer started crying, he never pushed past that. He was playing with his gun and pointed it at me, thought it was funny. The second time cost the sergeant his strips, as he pulled a gun on me trying to take a boat from the yard without paying the marina. He was taken away by his own peers in cuffs, he was lucky I backed off criminal charges at the request of the sheriff.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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northern wis
I noticed a huge different in how LEOs act to people with firearms between rural LEOs and urban LEOs.

Rural LEOs run into people with firearms all the time and most of the time when they do the people have a legitimate reason for being arm. Self defense, hunting, training or just because they can I have had lot of pleasant conversations with fellow gun owners about guns, hunting over the years as an LEOs.

Matter of fact I meet one of my best shooting buddies on a shooting complaint his neighbor was complaining about the shooting he was doing and thought it was unsafe.

I stopped in at his cabin and there was a lot of shooting going on (3 or 4 20 year olds with new ARs and lots of ammo).

I told them why I was there and the neighbor's concerns. They showed me what way they were shooting and their back stop. I said you know if you just changed the angle a little bit it would be safer and less chance of any bullets going astray.

I also told them of a couple of gavel pits close by that were open for shooting. The owner and now my friend said would you like to shoot a few rounds through my AR I said sure I shot a few rounds told them to be safe and we became good shooting buddies after that for the last 35 years.

Where as urban LEOs hardly run into people with firearms unless they are used in a crime (but that is changing also).

We are gaining ground in the education department with urban LEOs but it has been a slow process to defeat all the anti gun BS that's been feed to them over 50 some years by the anti gun people, media, law, schools.

Some learn fairly easy some it takes a lot more pressure to make them see the light, law suits, legislation, court rulings all come into play into teaching them that all guns are not evil.

It is been a up hill battle and we are still fighting it in a lot of the country losing some places winning in others.

Hardly ever has the fight for any civil right been won over night most taking decades to win.
 

eye95

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eye95

I like the vocal part in the recording ( if I am not free to go then why are you grabbing my arm ) and will try hard if ever detained to remember but why give them name and address if you know you have gave no RAS?

You can't possibly KNOW. And, if you are wrong, not giving them that information will be a crime.

A person may have called stating that you were threatening people with the gun, or playing with it outside the holster, or the like. Even if those claims were lies, the officer has RAS. If you are detained, for the moment, assume it is lawful and do everything you'd have to do during a lawful detention, nothing more. Verbalize that you will not answer any questions, make any statements, or consent to any searches or seizures.

You can deal with an unlawful detention later.
 

Butlerite

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I am with Skidmark!

I am with skidmark! He is a man with experience!

IMHO any conversation with the police that has not already resulted in your being placed under arrest (verbally informed or cuffed) should consist of one and only one question:

Q #1 - Am I free to go?

Until you get a YES/NO response to that question, there should be no other conversation from your side. Ignore everything they say except the answer to "Am I free to go?"

If answer to Q #1 = YES, then go. Say nothing. Go.

If answer to Q #1 = NO, state clearly that you want to speak with your attorney before you answer any questions. And then say nothing until you have consulted with and been advised by your attorney.

You will get cuffed. You will get stuffed into a squad car and driven to the police station. You will be asked to provide information such as your name, your address, your date of birth, and your social security number (even though it says right on the card the number is not to be used for identification purposes). You probably will be asked a lot of other questions - possibly by multiple LEOs all asking their questions at the same time. They will either make you empty your pockets or empty them for you. Cooperating by emptying your pockets yourself may prevent damage to your clothing.

Say nothing until you have consulted with and been advised by your attorney. Your life is in the pits already. How much worse can they really make it? So shut up and say nothing until you have consulted with and been advised by your attorney. Do not respond to questions about why you want to consult with and be advised by your attorney - not even by saying something along the lines of "It's my right and I want to exercise my right." You have said yu are not going to talk with them until you consult with and are advised by your attorney. Show them that you mean it.

Your attorney will probably tell you that if the reason for arresting you is bogus you will make him (your attorrney) wealthier by suing all the cops involved - unless you have said something to the cops which gave them a valid reason to arrest you.

Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. Recently SCOTUS has said that anything you do jot say can be used against you - unless you have asked to consult with and be advided by your attorney before saying anything.

Don't say anything until you consult with and are advised by your attorney. You are going to be paying him anyway. Might as well get the best value for yur money.

stay safe.
 

Butlerite

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Could you please provide some sort of link to the source (facts) of this statement: "Even if those claims were lies, the office has RAS?" I don't think that is a true statement.. but will be happy to be corrected.


You can't possibly KNOW. And, if you are wrong, not giving them that information will be a crime.

A person may have called stating that you were threatening people with the gun, or playing with it outside the holster, or the like. Even if those claims were lies, the officer has RAS. If you are detained, for the moment, assume it is lawful and do everything you'd have to do during a lawful detention, nothing more. Verbalize that you will not answer any questions, make any statements, or consent to any searches or seizures.

You can deal with an unlawful detention later.
 

1245A Defender

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Jul 7, 2009
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north mason county, Washington, USA
Well,,,

The more of these threads I read that say we should ask,
Am I free to go,,, that they wont answer...
Why am I being detained,,, that they wont answer....

I have never felt these were good questions,,, cause, they wont answer,
these are too soft of questions...

Ask a HARD QUESTION!!!
WHY AM I UNDER ARREST!!!!!!

They may feel a need to say, you are not under arrest....
Sooooo,,,, Now you walk away!!!
 

eye95

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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
I don't believe I am having to answer this, but being an advocate of providing support...

Terry says that it is the totality of the information available to the officer that determines whether he has RAS. If he has reason to believe that you have committed a crime (and the telephone call with its lies and you fitting the general description would provide that), he has RAS.

Remember, it is not whether you think RAS existed. It is not even whether the officer thought he had RAS. It is whether, later, a court rules he had RAS! If the court makes such a ruling later (you cannot know how it will rule) and you did not ID yourself according to your State laws, then, depending on those laws, you could be charged with a crime, even if you had otherwise done nothing wrong.

Read Citizen's excellent treatise on the topic. There is a link a few posts earlier.


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Freedom1Man

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Greater Eastside Washington
Skid and Eye. You two both say you would give the officer an amount of information VOLUNTARILY???? WHY?!

I would only give them the minimum information require by the law to give them. In my state I am not required to give them ANY information unless I am being cited or under a couple of motor vehicle related stops.

Skid, you would give them you SSN? What for? To prove that you're a socialist? What law requires you to disclose your SSN to the police even if you DO have a SSN?

We all seem to agree that giving the cops any information that we're not LEGALLY REQUIRED to give them is a BAD idea, so why would you advocate giving them ANY information that is you're not required by law to give?
 

eye95

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Where did I say that I would give the officer any information other than name, address, and date of birth (which Ohio law requires to be given if requested during a lawful stop)?

My point has been to determine whether one is detained (seized), and if he is, don't try to work out on the spot whether the detention is lawful. Proceed as though it is. Fix any unlawfulness later.


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Freedom1Man

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Where did I say that I would give the officer any information other than name, address, and date of birth (which Ohio law requires to be given if requested during a lawful stop)?

My point has been to determine whether one is detained (seized), and if he is, don't try to work out on the spot whether the detention is lawful. Proceed as though it is. Fix any unlawfulness later.


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First off the SSN thing was directed at Skid.

Second off if there is NO LAW REQUIRING you to give the information are talking about, then you're volunteering it. Why would you given them any more than what is legally required?

Unless in your state a mere stop requires you to give them name, address, birth date etc.

Cite your Ohio law that requires any disclosure on a minor detainment.

I know in Washington no disclosure is required unless charged/cited or at certain vehicle related stops.
 

eye95

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ORC 2921.29 requires one to respond to a request for name, address, and date of birth when stopped for RAS. Since I have no way of knowing whether an officer has RAS or not, I only determine whether I am detained (seized) or not, and if I am, I will give that information to avoid inadvertently committing a crime.

I will share no other information with the officer. Now if he wants to be a regular Joe and sit down for a cup with me. I'll chat up a storm about the law, guns, weather, whatever (except information about me or what I am doing).


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Freedom1Man

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ORC 2921.29 requires one to respond to a request for name, address, and date of birth when stopped for RAS. Since I have no way of knowing whether an officer has RAS or not, I only determine whether I am detained (seized) or not, and if I am, I will give that information to avoid inadvertently committing a crime.

I will share no other information with the officer. Now if he wants to be a regular Joe and sit down for a cup with me. I'll chat up a storm about the law, guns, weather, whatever (except information about me or what I am doing).


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Understandable, you're simply advocating that you follow the letter of the law.

So the application varies from state to state.
 

eye95

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What States do not require you identify yourself in some fashion if an officer demands such during a lawful stop?

Terry clearly establishes that such requests are generally constitutional, so I can't imagine many (if any) States do not have ID laws.
 

WalkingWolf

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Shouldn't you be providing states WITH laws making it illegal to not ID, instead of asking for proof of a negative. You know better than that.
 

Freedom1Man

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What States do not require you identify yourself in some fashion if an officer demands such during a lawful stop?

Terry clearly establishes that such requests are generally constitutional, so I can't imagine many (if any) States do not have ID laws.

I know, Washington has a limited ID yourself law. You cannot be forced to ID yourself if walking along the street UNLESS you're being issued a citation/ticket/charged with a crime.

Now, you claim that there are states that have a "must ID yourself" law that requires ID outside of being cited/ticketed/charged plus vehicular 'stuff' then please cite the laws and list the states.
 
Last edited:

BrianB

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Shouldn't you be providing states WITH laws making it illegal to not ID, instead of asking for proof of a negative. You know better than that.

Wikipedia has a decent "Stop and Identify Statutes" page. I think it would be great if everyone reviewed the page and corrected anything there that you find to be incorrect for your state. That way the information is all in one place rather than being buried in some soon-to-be-obscure page on OCDO.

The Florida information on that page appears to be correct. In Florida it's kind of an odd situation. If the officer has RAS, under F.S. 901.151 the officer "may temporarily detain such person for the purpose of ascertaining the identity of the person temporarily detained and the circumstances surrounding the person’s presence abroad which led the officer to believe that the person had committed, was committing, or was about to commit a criminal offense". The statute however provides no criminal penalty for failing to identify yourself. Presumably if the officer has statutory authority to ascertain your identity, he may be allowed to detain you until until such time as he has accomplished that purpose (would depend upon case law I suppose). I would think that if you answer "my name is Your Real Name Here" then he has identified you. I suppose it's his problem as to whether or not he believes you.

The other "ID related" statute is F.S. 856.021 which relates to Loitering and Prowling. It appears that this statute has been used to impose criminal consequences for failure to identify, but only when you are specifically suspected of loitering or prowling.

Personally I think the best course of conduct is to establish whether or not the officer is detaining you by asking if you are free to leave, and if he won't answer, then attempt to leave (slowly, deliberately, and while announcing the fact into your recorder). If the officer verbally or physically halts your attempt to leave, be sure that your recorder captures you saying "by your having grabbed my arm / blocked my path / given me a verbal command to remain / etc., you have indicated I am being detained - what is your reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime to detain me". He may not answer - in my opinion that just helps you when you file your lawsuit after the fact. If he says you're detained, you're detained. I've read at least one Florida attorney who said you are allowed to resist an unlawful detention without violence, but of course that's a dice game because (as pointed out earlier) hey may concoct a suitable RAS later and then your obstruction or a "resisting without" charge will be more likely to stick.

I don't know what constitutes "identifying yourself" for purposes of Florida case law. I think if I provide my true name and DOB I have identified myself.

If the officer says I am detained and does not state what his RAS is, I probably would push the point now and again that he has not articulated his suspicion and the detention appears to be an unlawful seizure and I will not cooperate with an unlawful seizure. I don't know how much good it does to simply say "am I free to go" over and over. I definitely like the tactic of "I will not answer any questions without an attorney present so you should not ask me any", followed by "why do you keep asking me questions when I have already told you I want an attorney present" if they do.

Regarding recording the encounter, Florida is an "all parties consent" state. That means notification is not sufficient, all parties being recorded must consent to the recording. The Florida wiretapping statute (which also covers "in person" oral communications) does not apply when a person is in a public place where they have no reasonable expectation of privacy. However there was a case in 2005 (don't know the cite right off) where one court said that if the interaction with the police was in a place where they would have a reasonable expectation of privacy, then recording them would be a crime (a felony by the way). For this reason while you are recording the police in Florida, I think it would be clever to say "I can't believe you're willing to act this way in public, don't you know other people can hear every word you're saying" which will probably prompt a reply along the lines of "I don't care who hears me" (or the like). Poof. No reasonable expectation of privacy. :)

What would be super nice would be a Wiki of some sort that had all of the relevant statutes and case law for "stop and identify", recording, obstruction, resisting, etc., state-by-state, in one place. Maybe a "Police Interaction" page on Wikipedia.org that experts from all over would improve and keep current over time?

Anyway, I rambled a bit there - sorry about that.
 

eye95

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I know, Washington has a limited ID yourself law. You cannot be forced to ID yourself if walking along the street UNLESS you're being issued a citation/ticket/charged with a crime.

Now, you claim that there are states that have a "must ID yourself" law that requires ID outside of being cited/ticketed/charged plus vehicular 'stuff' then please cite the laws and list the states.

So, WA has an ID law.

It is my assumption that almost every State has a law requiring that one identify himself if he is stopped by an officer with RAS who asks for an identification.

I ask because I know that folks here know the laws (including ID laws) of their home States quite well. They will know if there is no requirement to ID during a lawful detention.
 

eye95

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Wikipedia has a decent "Stop and Identify Statutes" page...

Thanks for the link. The post to which you were responding was an attempt to start some trouble. I was asking for folks to chime in with their State laws, and the other poster was being antagonistic, implying that I was demanding others post proof of the opposite of my assertion rather than supporting my assertion.

I have asserted only about Ohio and conjectured about States in general, asking for members here to post from their knowledge of their State laws on ID. I am genuinely curious if there is even a single State that does not require that persons respond in some fashion to a demand for ID from an officer having RAS and conducting an investigatory stop as a result of the RAS.

Wikipedia is an excellent source in many respects. The law is not one of them. It provides a good place to start one's research. But the actual law is the place to go. Most of the folks here have read the law of their State and know it well. If one makes a mistake in the statement of the law here, trust me, about a half-a-dozen posts will correct him almost immediately. OCDO is a great source for the law.
 

cmr287

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Dec 22, 2011
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Harris County GA, ,
I OC daily and have never had an issue. I have nurve damage from being blown up a few times in the Stan and have the aid of a stimulator to help me bring some life into my nurves to get around. When I walk, 1-2 miles i always have my sidearm OC'd.

1) reason being I can not retreat like most, (I mean run). I will back off as much as I can, however if you closing in faster than I can back down that person, dog whatever is going to be a spunge.

2) A right not exercised is a right Lost!




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