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Shotgun for HD

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
I am not a fan of using a shotgun for self-defense in the home for a simple reason, one involving leverage. All long guns can be used against you if you let an intruder grab the end of the gun. A pistol, on the other hand, can be kept tucked close.

If one had to have a shotgun for home defense, I'd recommend a pump action.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
I am not a fan of using a shotgun for self-defense in the home for a simple reason, one involving leverage. All long guns can be used against you if you let an intruder grab the end of the gun. A pistol, on the other hand, can be kept tucked close.

If one had to have a shotgun for home defense, I'd recommend a pump action.

And that is why you do something to shorten it. Like a collapsible stock or the shortest legal barrel length (or both); that way it's easier to manuever and they have to be that much closer to try and grab it. In a bladed stance my shotgun sticks out only 4-6" from my body, and if the perp is that close he could try to grab a handgun (though the handgun could be held one-handed down low, but that wouldn't be ideal to shoot from, while my shotgun can be reasonibly fired from the hip).
 

RetiredOC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
1,567
At work some folks were talking about shotguns for home defense. I chimed in and was immediately dubbed the retard because everyone except from myself believed religiously that you HAD to have the "pencil" in your shot gun tube limiting you to three rounds, and the first shot HAD to be bird shot, the 2nd HAD to be buck, and the 3rd HAD to be a slug if you were going to use the gun for home defense. If you didn't have the "pencil" in the tube and those 3 rounds loaded in that order then you were going to jail after defending your home.

I was the idiot for telling them this was not true. Why was I stupid? Because their sources were law enforcement officers. :banghead:

Stupidity in the masses will ALWAYS trump fact.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
At work some folks were talking about shotguns for home defense. I chimed in and was immediately dubbed the retard because everyone except from myself believed religiously that you HAD to have the "pencil" in your shot gun tube limiting you to three rounds, and the first shot HAD to be bird shot, the 2nd HAD to be buck, and the 3rd HAD to be a slug if you were going to use the gun for home defense. If you didn't have the "pencil" in the tube and those 3 rounds loaded in that order then you were going to jail after defending your home.

I was the idiot for telling them this was not true. Why was I stupid? Because their sources were law enforcement officers. :banghead:

Stupidity in the masses will ALWAYS trump fact.

You should ask them to quote that in the law and direct them to this thread.

The people in my work pretty much gave up on trying to argue with me about rules/laws/AFIs (Air Force Instructions) if the couldn't actually cite something. After constantly correcting them with cites and even correcting a volunteer police officer (multiple times, its oddly fun to do so) in the shop they've finally learned that I'm not just making this stuff up and I actually know what I'm talking about. I think the best one I had was a guy who claimed that .410 was a rifle round instead of a shotgun round and when I told him otherwise his response was "I would think I know what I'm talking about, I have a .410 at home and it's a rifle."
 

RetiredOC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
1,567
You should ask them to quote that in the law and direct them to this thread.

The people in my work pretty much gave up on trying to argue with me about rules/laws/AFIs (Air Force Instructions) if the couldn't actually cite something. After constantly correcting them with cites and even correcting a volunteer police officer (multiple times, its oddly fun to do so) in the shop they've finally learned that I'm not just making this stuff up and I actually know what I'm talking about. I think the best one I had was a guy who claimed that .410 was a rifle round instead of a shotgun round and when I told him otherwise his response was "I would think I know what I'm talking about, I have a .410 at home and it's a rifle."

I know what AFI is lol. "OMG YOUR HAIR HAS TO BE TAPERED YOU CAN'T HAVE A MOHAWK. YOU NEED A HAIRCUT NOW I'M TELLING YOU AS A TSGT"

"1. it's not a "mohawk." 2. AFI 36-2903 specifically mentions the military high and tight as an exception to the tapered rule, get at me..."

edit: "I would think I know what I'm talking about, I have a .410 at home and it's a rifle." < This is awesome...
 
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Thejoyofdriving

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
55
Location
CA
I have both a handgun(9mm) and a mossberg 930 within arms reach at night. I keep the handgun at the side of the bed, and if the girlfriend isnt staying over I sleep with the mossberg. If she is, it stays at the side of the bed. I currently have it loaded with 00 buck, but I am going to be switching to Federals personal defense load in #4 buck. Low number birdshot DOES work if you arent going to be shooting at more than 10ft or so, I might have to make a shot longer than that so I choose to use small buck. If you ask me, 00 buck just has way to much penetration to be used in a suburban area like where I live. I have neighbors on all 4 sides. I might start using the 5.56 rifle as my primary go to gun loaded with TAP rounds. 5.56/.223 rounds penetrate much less through household materials than handgun rounds or 00 buck. Ive seen them fragment after just passing through just 3 panels of drywall(meaning they wont enter another room or exit the house). Also, if a BG has a vest, i have the capability to defeat it with the 5.56.
 
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SovereignAxe

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
795
Location
Elizabethton, TN
I have both a handgun(9mm) and a mossberg 930 within arms reach at night. I keep the handgun at the side of the bed, and if the girlfriend isnt staying over I sleep with the mossberg. If she is, it stays at the side of the bed. I currently have it loaded with 00 buck, but I am going to be switching to Federals personal defense load in #4 buck. Low number birdshot DOES work if you arent going to be shooting at more than 10ft or so, I might have to make a shot longer than that so I choose to use small buck. If you ask me, 00 buck just has way to much penetration to be used in a suburban area like where I live. I have neighbors on all 4 sides. I might start using the 5.56 rifle as my primary go to gun loaded with TAP rounds. 5.56/.223 rounds penetrate much less through household materials than handgun rounds or 00 buck. Ive seen them fragment after just passing through just 3 panels of drywall(meaning they wont enter another room or exit the house). Also, if a BG has a vest, i have the capability to defeat it with the 5.56.

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure I saw that round go through a lot more than three walls at boxoftruth.com. I could be wrong.
 

Thejoyofdriving

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
55
Location
CA
Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure I saw that round go through a lot more than three walls at boxoftruth.com. I could be wrong.

Im sure :)

If you ask me, the boxotruth test wasnt very well done. I dont think they spaced the "walls" out enough. I appreciate what those guys do, and I always love reading their new tests. However, the FBI as well as the military have tested the penetration of various munitions. Needless to say they have a fair amount of funding and ive seen tests in which they built an entire mock house(real walls, insulation, etc) just to test penetration. If you have noticed, many swat teams are trading in their SMGs for Single fire or select fire carbines chambered in 5.56 for this very reason. 5.56 rounds pack more punch, yet penetrate less through household materials. Apparently, the FBI specifically instructs their agents to switch to their sidearm in order to dig out perps behind cover.

This website contains the relevant information for the FBI tests.(you have been warned, its not a short read :)

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=26


Also, this is an independent test done by The Best Defense.

http://www.outdoorchannel.com/Shows...tGfbC0T9rNqX7BGsFSRbAcZjIb5Sx&tpid=1507124132

Of course, the type of ammo you go with has a lot to do with it. For example, m855 might pass right through your house where a 60gr TAP round will not. From my personal research ive decided to go with the TAP rounds, they seem to reliably fragment. Its funny, but you should be more worried about picking up your 9mm/.40/.357 etc and missing than your AR lol


I don't know if this information has been discussed before, maybe I should make a thread?
 
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SovereignAxe

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
795
Location
Elizabethton, TN
I'm sure it probably has, but I haven't seen one, and I dug pretty deep when I joined this forum. I tried starting an ammo thread once and it never took off, but it was mostly about pistol rounds. I'd like to see a good long discussion about the different types of ammo in its own thread. Start one if you wish.

btw, I got all excited when you warned me about that not being a short read, as it's a pretty slow day at work but as expected, I got this message:

Access Denied
Category = weapons/bombs,specialized shopping

le sigh. guess I'll have to view it from home some time.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
I'm sure it probably has, but I haven't seen one, and I dug pretty deep when I joined this forum. I tried starting an ammo thread once and it never took off, but it was mostly about pistol rounds. I'd like to see a good long discussion about the different types of ammo in its own thread. Start one if you wish.

btw, I got all excited when you warned me about that not being a short read, as it's a pretty slow day at work but as expected, I got this message:

Access Denied
Category = weapons/bombs,specialized shopping

le sigh. guess I'll have to view it from home some time.

What are you on, a military network?
 

RetiredOC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
1,567
I love getting denied access to website when I'm on a military network. My favorite reasons for being blocked are

Government
Law
Legal
Military

WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
 

MR Redenck

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Messages
596
Location
West Texas
Somebody say Shotgun?:)
First, dont be fooled by this "Big Wide" pattern rumor. OO and even 6 shot group very tight at close range. Slugs are more accurate than you might think as long as they are rifled slugs.
I love shotguns, dont know why I just do.
As for me, I have a shotgun handy all the time. When I get up in the morning my 12 gauge goes in the back of the truck seat. When I get home, its beside the bed. At home the chambers stays HOT. This idea of racking it to scare bad people does not apply at my place. Violate my property and get shot! I have no desire to scare some ******* so they can pull some crap over on me.
Something I would suggest is trying different ammo. Go to your favorite place to shoot and set up some ply boards. Shoot at 7, 25, and 50 yards. Your going to learn a few things about grouping. Buckshot stays grouped very well at 25 yards with the right barrel.
Have fun and enjoy. BOOM!
 

Thejoyofdriving

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
55
Location
CA
Somebody say Shotgun?:)
First, dont be fooled by this "Big Wide" pattern rumor. OO and even 6 shot group very tight at close range. Slugs are more accurate than you might think as long as they are rifled slugs.
I love shotguns, dont know why I just do.
As for me, I have a shotgun handy all the time. When I get up in the morning my 12 gauge goes in the back of the truck seat. When I get home, its beside the bed. At home the chambers stays HOT. This idea of racking it to scare bad people does not apply at my place. Violate my property and get shot! I have no desire to scare some ******* so they can pull some crap over on me.
Something I would suggest is trying different ammo. Go to your favorite place to shoot and set up some ply boards. Shoot at 7, 25, and 50 yards. Your going to learn a few things about grouping. Buckshot stays grouped very well at 25 yards with the right barrel.
Have fun and enjoy. BOOM!

Out of curiosity what do you mean about the right barrel? Unfortunately a lot of short barreled HD shotguns are cyl bore. :( You cant choke them. I would say 00 buck starts to reach its limit at around 10-15 yards with my 930(18" barrel). Any more than that and the pattern gets so large that it might not be a one shot stop, but its sort of down to luck(where those pellets decide to land). Not that it couldnt take a BG down, just that I would rather go for the rifle. Now, one can argue that 15 yards is a pretty long shot to be a self defense. One is not likely to make a shot like that in their home.


I want to know what buckshot you use! I have see the tests for the Federal stuff with the flight control wad. That stuff will make one hole at 10yrds and at 25 yards people are saying they get 6" groups.:shocker: With the regular winchester super x stuff, I get like 10-12" groups at 10 yards and a very big spread at 25 yards. FWIW i have heard the hornady personal defense stuff is similar to the federal flight control.
 
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MR Redenck

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Messages
596
Location
West Texas
Sounds to me like your barrel sucks.
I have a 18" police cylinder barrel on one of my 12 gauges that will group pretty much any OO at 25 yards with a 12" pattern. I shoot rifled slugs at 100 yards through the same gun and hit a 24" target. Your not going to keep any buck or pellet shot grouped very tight. A 10" patter at 10 yards or so isnt bad at all. Your talking a pettern the size of your head almost.
Winchester makes a really good Slug defense that has 3 OO pellets in it. Those will destroy anything you aim at. Comes in a black box.
And yes the wadding makes a big difference on shot shells. Some of the cheap crap doesnt even have a wad for OO, just a little flat disc.
 
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