"Show me your carry papers!"

[ICBM]

Waco (January 4, 2016) A New Year means a new law for gun owners.

As of Jan. 1 the more than 800,000 handgun license owners will now be able to carry their firearms openly as long as it is in a hip or shoulder holster.

However many city officials and law enforcement officials are bracing for lawsuits due to the law's ambiguity.

The state has left much of the interpretation of the law up to local authorities.

"Right now the attorney general's ruling on that, there's a lot of gray area," said Sgt. Patrick Swanton of the Waco Police Department.

Specifically, one of the gray areas and most debated in the last legislative session: whether police officers can ask those visibly carrying guns to present their permits.

"What we're trying to do is be responsible about who we approach," Swanton said.

With the law being so ambiguous, many cities including Waco are leaving it up to the officers discretion.

"That has not gone through a court process yet whether or not an officer has a right to ask you for your hand gun permit or not," Swanton said.

Josh Tetens, a Waco Criminal Defense Attorney with Simer and Tetens said local authorities will end up wrestling with decisions because of the vagueness of the law.

"Obviously, that can be abused like any other law," Tetens said.

Texas is the 45th state to enact an open carry law and Tetens said like other states it won't be long before the law gets more specific as lawsuits are filed and cases heard.

"With any new law there's going to be some vetting some gray areas and we will get down to the nitty gritty in time," Tetens said.

Above from KWTX.com

So, in your new state law, the legislator has decided that carrying a gun openly waives your 4th Amendment rights, which it does not. I hope all you guys refuse to provide your permits to police who stop you unjustifiably. As an Indiana resident, I've brought up this issue on the IN board, and have even found relevant case law that would back my argument.

There is no state law that would require you to present ID and/or permit JUST for carrying a weapon. They can not perform an "arrest" to investigate if you've committed a crime without reasonable suspicion or probable cause. Some think an "arrest" only occurs when they put cuffs on you. This is not correct. Remember; an arrest is when you are stopped by police either physically (even a simple touch), an act where a person feels like they are not allow to leave, like an officer activating his emergency lights and pulling you over or next to you on the sidewalk, or any other act that reasonably makes you feel detained or not free to leave.

Once again, I hope if you're stopped that you all refuse to ID yourselves, unless they cite a ordinance or statute you have violated.

"Being a felon in possession of a firearm is not the default status. More importantly, where a state permits individuals to openly carry firearms, the exercise of this right, without more, cannot justify an investigatory detention. Permitting such a justification would eviscerate Fourth Amendment protections for lawfully armed individuals in those states."

 

[jfrey123]

I've wondered about this myself, from this angle: "If open carry is illegal without a permit, isn't the act of open carry PC for a crime until the permit is shown?"

For awhile, I would have said yes. However, compare it to a similar circumstance: driving a vehicle on a highway. That act is illegal without a valid driver's license, yet police cannot stop a driver simply to check the license.

 

[solus]

OP you might wish to peruse the texas thread...gaggles of stuff and heavy discussion there on this subject...

there is a tx mandate requiring those with a permit to show their permit when a nice LE requests it...xxx.205

ipse

 

[qednick]

OP you might wish to peruse the texas thread...gaggles of stuff and heavy discussion there on this subject...

there is a tx mandate requiring those with a permit to show their permit when a nice LE requests it...xxx.205

ipse

But there is no penalty prescribed for refusing to comply.

 

[solus]

ged, was trying, w/o success, to redirect this OP to read all the other comments on all the other threads saying the same thing...

sigh...

ipse

 

[qednick]

ged, was trying, w/o success, to redirect this OP to read all the other comments on all the other threads saying the same thing...

sigh...

ipse

Sorry...there was no link

Did you mean this thread: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?130136-Need-clarification-on-Texas-open-carry-rules

 

[CrossFire]

But there is no penalty prescribed for refusing to comply.

I believe that the penalty will come when the cop busts you and takes you to jail.

 

[ICBM]

Sorry...there was no link

Did you mean this thread: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?130136-Need-clarification-on-Texas-open-carry-rules

His question was retaining mainly to holster specifics and laws of surrounding states. I didn't mean to dupe a thread topic :/

 

[qednick]

His question was retaining mainly to holster specifics and laws of surrounding states. I didn't mean to dupe a thread topic :/

Start half way into the thread. Goes off on a tangent but covers your topic in depth

 

[ICBM]

Start half way into the thread. Goes off on a tangent but covers your topic in depth

Fair enough. I didn't read through the thread enough. But I think this specific question needs to be the priority of the thread and not just a spin-off/side topic.

Can police stop you to check your permit?

I resoundingly say, NO.

 

[ICBM]

A cop can bust you and take you to jail for any thing, reason or not, that he wishes. Felonious mopery with intent to gawp is a perfectly adequate charge on a ticket. You may beat the rap but you will not beat the ride.

Yes but the department and possibly officer pay out on such arbitrary arrests;

In Gardner v. Federal Department Stores, supra, at 1353, the Second Circuit held that $50,000 was reasonable compensation for approximately 8 hours in custody, or $6250 per hour.

In Musto v. Arakel, 584 N.Y.S.2d 812, 813 (N.Y. App. 1st Dep’t 1992) (mem.), the First Department held that $60,000 was reasonable compensation for a false arrest (time in custody not given by court in decision).

In Roundtree v. City of New York, 617 N.Y.S.2d 170, 171 (N.Y. App. 1st Dep’t 1994) (mem.), the First Department held that $200,000 was reasonable compensation for approximately 84 hours in custody, or $2381 per hour.

In Mercado v. City of New York, 703 N.Y.S.2d 283, 283 (N.Y. App. 2d Dep’t 2000) (mem.), the Second Department affirmed the jury’s verdict that $120,000 was reasonable compensation for a false arrest (time in custody not given by court in decision).

In Martinez v. Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, 445 F.3d 158, 160-161 (2d Cir. 2006) (per curiam), the Second Circuit affirmed the lower court’s ruling that $160,000 was reasonable compensation for approximately 19 hours in custody, or $8421 per hour.

In Sylvester v. City of New York, 2006 WL 3230152, at *4 (S.D.N.Y. Nov. 8, 2006), the district court affirmed the jury’s verdict that $30,000 was reasonable compensation for “several hours” in custody at precinct (specific time in custody not given by court in decision).

In Landow v. Town of Amherst, 853 N.Y.S.2d 760, 761 (N.Y. App. 4th Dep’t 2008) (mem.), the Fourth Department affirmed the lower court’s ruling that $10,000 was reasonable compensation for approximately 4 hours in custody, or $2500 per hour.

- From Warshawskylawfirm.com

 

[CrossFire]

Yes but the department and possibly officer pay out on such arbitrary arrests;


- From Warshawskylawfirm.com

I believe that you would be more likely to be arrested for something like "disorderly conduct" than refusing to show your papers.

 

[qednick]

A cop can bust you and take you to jail for any thing, reason or not, that he wishes. Felonious mopery with intent to gawp is a perfectly adequate charge on a ticket. You may beat the rap but you will not beat the ride.

+1

If a cop doesn't like the look of you, he'll likely ask for your papers. If you don't comply, he'll likely find some "contempt of cop" charge to sling at you and haul you off in handcuffs. There is an existing statute (re: concealed carry laws) which says you should show both your CHL/LTC and other ID when asked. But there is no penalty for refusing. So there's a law but it doesn't have teeth. However, this does not mean the LEO will not arrest you and you'll subsequently have to argue your case in court.

Whether this happens, and whether someone files suit against a TX LE agency, remains to be seen. Honestly, I guess all us TX folk are waiting on this one to find out. The question remains, which LEO/LE agency and OC'er are going to make the test case for Texas.

 

[stealthyeliminator]

OP you might wish to peruse the texas thread...gaggles of stuff and heavy discussion there on this subject...

there is a tx mandate requiring those with a permit to show their permit when a nice LE requests it...xxx.205

ipse

lol I was just sitting here thinking... I really don't want to have to rehash this... OP is sort of right that it sucks the other conversation is buried in another thread though.

+1

If a cop doesn't like the look of you, he'll likely ask for your papers. If you don't comply, he'll likely find some "contempt of cop" charge to sling at you and haul you off in handcuffs. There is an existing statute (re: concealed carry laws) which says you should show both your CHL/LTC and other ID when asked. But there is no penalty for refusing. So there's a law but it doesn't have teeth. However, this does not mean the LEO will not arrest you and you'll subsequently have to argue your case in court.

Whether this happens, and whether someone files suit against a TX LE agency, remains to be seen. Honestly, I guess all us TX folk are waiting on this one to find out. The question remains, which LEO/LE agency and OC'er are going to make the test case for Texas.

You are right, but, to go to court you'll have to be charged with something (of course). Honestly I'd be a little surprised if an arrest for not IDing ever made it to court. I'm not going to help out bad prosecutors by speculating what they might charge one with, lol. But suffice to say, I'm not aware of anything that you would actually be in violation of.


Of course, I'm not a lawyer.

 

[qednick]

lol I was just sitting here thinking... I really don't want to have to rehash this... OP is sort of right that it sucks the other conversation is buried in another thread though.


You are right, but, to go to court you'll have to be charged with something (of course). Honestly I'd be a little surprised if an arrest for not IDing ever made it to court. I'm not going to help out bad prosecutors by speculating what they might charge one with, lol. But suffice to say, I'm not aware of anything that you would actually be in violation of.


Of course, I'm not a lawyer.

Well, a "contempt of cop" charge could be almost anything...most usually disorderly conduct. For me personally, I don't want to be a test case. If the circumstances are reasonable and I'm asked to show my papers, I would probably do so. However, if it's a clear case of harassment, I would probably refuse. It depends on the totality of the circumstances.

I've read a few news articles recently that reflect this "gray area". Prior to just a few days ago, all the media were stating as a fact that LE can demand to see the permit without good cause simply because you're OC'ing.

 

[stealthyeliminator]

Well, a "contempt of cop" charge could be almost anything...most usually disorderly conduct. For me personally, I don't want to be a test case. If the circumstances are reasonable and I'm asked to show my papers, I would probably do so. However, if it's a clear case of harassment, I would probably refuse. It depends on the totality of the circumstances.

I've read a few news articles recently that reflect this "gray area". Prior to just a few days ago, all the media were stating as a fact that LE can demand to see the permit without good cause simply because you're OC'ing.

You are right - to be honest, I don't really know where I was going with that. Sometimes when I'm in a rush, I just ramble a bit.

 

[solus]

i'm sorry, but ya'll have been shown from multiple sources in other threads the nice DPS peace officers can and will stop citizens per .205.

you can hop on one leg hoping the nice peace officer won't 'detain' your silly OC'g butts and if you cop any type of BS attitude...you will enjoy the ride...

OP, stealth, Ged, ad nauseam...step out and be the live guinea pig test case...but ya'll know deep in your hearts ya'll are hosed if the nice peace officer wishes to screw with you as you contritely surrender your concealed permit saying 'here ya go SIR'!

give the bloody subject a break would ya, cuz any way you may wish upon a star it isn't so, rehash it, regurgitate the material, or turn the subject inside out...bottom line, as nightmare stated: quote: A cop can bust you and take you to jail for any thing, reason or not, that he wishes. unquote.

ipse

 

[qednick]

i'm sorry, but ya'll have been shown from multiple sources in other threads the nice DPS peace officers can and will stop citizens per .205.

you can hop on one leg hoping the nice peace officer won't 'detain' your silly OC'g butts and if you cop any type of BS attitude...you will enjoy the ride...

OP, stealth, Ged, ad nauseam...step out and be the live guinea pig test case...but ya'll know deep in your hearts ya'll are hosed if the nice peace officer wishes to screw with you as you contritely surrender your concealed permit saying 'here ya go SIR'!

give the bloody subject a break would ya, cuz any way you may wish upon a star it isn't so, rehash it, regurgitate the material, or turn the subject inside out...bottom line, as nightmare stated: quote: A cop can bust you and take you to jail for any thing, reason or not, that he wishes. unquote.

ipse

Well we were all kinda hoping you'd make it over to the lone star state and be the test case for us.

 

[solus]

Well we were all kinda hoping you'd make it over to the lone star state and be the test case for us.

sorry, i am already on OCOD forum record to have volunteered back in Nov to engage in a gathering of like minded Texas OC'g citizens but was told naw'll...

so guess you will have to take my place, better yet...ya'll do the trio concept...you, stealthy and get ICBM down from the Hoosier state to step up to the challenge.

ipse

ps don't forget to set up a gofund me website...

 

[Fallschirjmäger]

I've wondered about this myself, from this angle: "If open carry is illegal without a permit, isn't the act of open carry PC for a crime until the permit is shown?"

For awhile, I would have said yes. However, compare it to a similar circumstance: driving a vehicle on a highway. That act is illegal without a valid driver's license, yet police cannot stop a driver simply to check the license.

I was speaking with a law student the other day and (according to him/his professors) there are (in general) two ways laws can be written. I'll use semi-ludicrous examples to make the point....
1) It is illegal to eat a ham sandwich on Sunday without obtaining a tax stamp.
2) Anyone eating a ham sandwich on Sunday must have a valid tax stamp.

Example one provides RAS simply by the mere observation of seeing a ham sandwich being eaten (It is illegal to....) whereas in the second one must suspect that a tax stamp is somehow not present in order to have RAS.

If one looks at most (can't say all) traffic laws, the requirement is that all drivers must have a valid license not that driving on the roads is illegal without having a license.