Stopped for OC @ Poulsbo Walmart 2/10 @1935

[MadHatter66]

This evening I was heading over to Walmart to pick up my prescription that was ready. I walked in, past an officer that in their car and already there talking to someone else about something else. I went in to the pharmacy, stood in line, sat down for a few while they finished up something. Then I checked out, and left the store. No one said anything, no one went running, I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. I also OC in Walmart all the time for at least the past 2 years or more, and never had any sort of problem.

When I walked out there was an officer pulling up and getting out of his car. I took note and kept walking to my car. Then I heard this guy screaming "OFFICER! OFFICER! Over there!" He was pointing in my direction. I started my recorder and waited for contact because I didn't want the officer to be able to use my plates against me, so I choose to stay away from my car.

The audio is what transpired. Near the end you hear me say "Hey Dan" I turned around and had 4 officers around me, one of them a guy I know. He called everyone off and we all sat around and talked for a while about some other things. But what frustrated me was the officer that wouldn't let it go, and I didn't even think to walk to Starbucks or another business, I just kept thinking that he was going to use my plates when I got to my car and was stalling a little...

I get that there was just a shooting, I do... But this was a little uncalled for with the attempts to get my name to run. I will be getting a copy of the 911 call and radio traffic, will probably be a few weeks though. In hind-sight I probably scared him when I used their disposition codes against him... I told him I used to be a dispatcher and he could call CENCOM if he really wanted my name to run, in hind sight it wasn't to trying to get him to leave me alone based on that, was just that I used his dispo code and scared him a little.

The link is a google docs link that will take you to a page to download the MP3 file... Its the only thing I can think of right now to get the audio out there...

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B74p4eFlmKggOTIyNjI4MjQtOWNiOC00NjJlLWFhZTEtZGM4Y2RiZGQ0YTQx

 

[amzbrady]

were you being detained or just wanted to consentually talk to the officer?

Just got the link to work, Sorry I see you consentually talked to the officer, I was able to answer my own question.

 

[golddigger14s]

Please retype this so we can fully comprehend.

 

[MadHatter66]

Lets put it this way, I felt like it was more of a defacto-detention until the end of the audio. He kept wanting to talk, and I was kind of stalling to come up with something to keep him from running my name through the license plate on my car, not that I have anything to hide I am just not suspected of a crime so leave me alone, break contact and leave. I gave him my first name, but didn't budge from there. When I turned around and there were 3 other officers behind be with their hands on their firearms, I did not feel that I was free to leave. Just so happens I know the officer that was directly behind me. At that point, told everyone it was fine and we talked for another 15min, during that time I no longer felt like I was being detained. For the entire audio, until I said at the end "hey can I..." I felt there was enough for a defacto-detention. To finish the "Hey can I..." it was "talk to you off the record, so to speak." I was asking about people that I know that work for the PD and were involved in the shooting a few days back and it really isn't pertinent to the audio because that is when I was really free to leave without being followed

 

[MadHatter66]

Please retype this so we can fully comprehend.

"Retype this" doesn't tell me much....

 

[Difdi]

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Shame on that panicky idiot who called 911 to report that no crime was being committed, and wasting that officer's time.

 

[fire suppressor]

Sorry you had that experience I have open carried in that Walmart for years and never had a problem. I can't listen to the audio while at work so I hope you do not mind me asking how much respect the officer showed you. Did he have a attitude or was it more of a casual conversation?

I was worried the shooting would cause this kind of reaction from the public glad it turned out alright for you in the end

 

[BigDave]

I listened to the audio (thanks for providing) while there are and likely will be for sometime these encounters will occur but I suspect will decrease with having encounters as this one handled. It was polite, rational, respectful on both sides of the encounter.
With encounters as this they are likely to be reduced and nonexistent with a little time.

 

[MadHatter66]

Sorry you had that experience I have open carried in that Walmart for years and never had a problem. I can't listen to the audio while at work so I hope you do not mind me asking how much respect the officer showed you. Did he have a attitude or was it more of a casual conversation?

I was worried the shooting would cause this kind of reaction from the public glad it turned out alright for you in the end

The officer that was the contact officer was a little pushy about getting my name. His words were that he was OK with it, but his actions and demeanor seemed to be a little to the opposite. At one point when I told him I was leaving he tried the "can I walk with you to talk" to which I called his bluff by telling him I knew he wanted to "walk and talk" to run my plate for a PIC, so he could run my data. To which I also objected.

I have been OC at Walmart here for a long time as well, it wasn't an employee that called 911, it was a customer. I understand the extra cover officers, especially after the shooting I do get that. I think there might be some of the same backlash with citizens as well right now. I can say its the first problem I have had OC anywhere in Kitsap in the last 4 years or so...

 

[fire suppressor]

Mad hatter I am always curious how people use their voice recorders did you just simply hold it or do you have some kind of configuration you keep it in? We need to meet up at some point we always miss each other by only a few hours. I think I might have saw you once in rite aid in Poulsbo but I was running in to get medicine for my sick girlfriend and did not have enough time to come say hi to the man I saw open carrying

 

[MadHatter66]

Mad hatter I am always curious how people use their voice recorders did you just simply hold it or do you have some kind of configuration you keep it in? We need to meet up at some point we always miss each other by only a few hours. I think I might have saw you once in rite aid in Poulsbo but I was running in to get medicine for my sick girlfriend and did not have enough time to come say hi to the man I saw open carrying

Actually I didn't have my real recorder with me so I use an iPhone app as a backup if needed, funny thing is that I had my good recorder earlier in the day and then when I left, I forgot to grab it.... But that is why I have a recorder app as well, because I may not always have my recorder, but I will always have my phone. I am trying to find a recorder that will record from my bluetooth headset as a mic, because I always have my bluetooth on as well. But I Just opened up the app, hit record turned off my screen and held it in my hand the whole time. Audio isn't the best, but better than nothing.

PM Me, will have to meet up at some point.

 

[fire suppressor]

Actually I didn't have my real recorder with me so I use an iPhone app as a backup if needed, funny thing is that I had my good recorder earlier in the day and then when I left, I forgot to grab it.... But that is why I have a recorder app as well, because I may not always have my recorder, but I will always have my phone. I am trying to find a recorder that will record from my bluetooth headset as a mic, because I always have my bluetooth on as well. But I Just opened up the app, hit record turned off my screen and held it in my hand the whole time. Audio isn't the best, but better than nothing.

PM Me, will have to meet up at some point.

If you find a recorder or app that will record from your Bluetooth PLEASE let me know. I have been looking but have not found it, the closest I have been able to find is a looxice

 

[Vitaeus]

Thanks for sharing. Hopefully the officers spent just as much effort on educating the 911 caller that the behavior was perfectly legal.

 

[Metalhead47]

Actually I didn't have my real recorder with me so I use an iPhone app as a backup if needed, funny thing is that I had my good recorder earlier in the day and then when I left, I forgot to grab it.... But that is why I have a recorder app as well, because I may not always have my recorder, but I will always have my phone. I am trying to find a recorder that will record from my bluetooth headset as a mic, because I always have my bluetooth on as well. But I Just opened up the app, hit record turned off my screen and held it in my hand the whole time. Audio isn't the best, but better than nothing.

PM Me, will have to meet up at some point.

What app do you use?

 

[amlevin]

Gosh, do you think maybe the "citizen" might have been a little concerned after the recent "Shootout at Les Schwab"?

You know, there really are people out there that don't understand anything at all about guns or the legality of their carry. No amount of "education" will change that. Unfortunately the cops are caught between those that know and those that don't. If they don't respond they're condemned. If they do, they're condemned, just by a different group.

I have yet to be contacted by a LEO for open carrying but then again, I carry a Sig.

 

[Metalhead47]

Gosh, do you think maybe the "citizen" might have been a little concerned after the recent "Shootout at Les Schwab"?

You know, there really are people out there that don't understand anything at all about guns or the legality of their carry. No amount of "education" will change that. Unfortunately the cops are caught between those that know and those that don't. If they don't respond they're condemned. If they do, they're condemned, just by a different group.

Then they should educate and possibly cite those who don't (for abusing the 911 system). If someone called 911 over an offensive T shirt they thought was "dangerous," what do you think the result would be? Would the "open T-shirter" even be contacted?

I have yet to be contacted by a LEO for open carrying but then again, I carry a Sig.

Neither have I, and I carry a Hi-Point

 

[Mainsail]

were you being detained or just wanted to consentually talk to the officer?

Just got the link to work, Sorry I see you consentually talked to the officer, I was able to answer my own question.

I can't listen to the audio, but if the OP consented to the encounter what is it that happened for him to complain about?

If there were four officers surrounding him, then an argument could be made that he was detained. If he consented to the encounter before he was surrounded, and encouraged the continuance of the encounter by discussing anything with the first officer, than it would lean toward a consensual encounter regardless.

It's tough NOT to debate them, I know and I've been there; my criticism is based on my personal experiences. But what I discovered was that because the goals of each party are completely different, it's not a debate at all. We want to PROVE by argument that OC is lawful and doesn't rise to the level of necessitating a police encounter. The police, on the other hand, are going to argue for two reasons, to make OC a hassle for you, and to make it appear to the reporting party that they're doing something. If the debate is not a debate at all, then there will never be a winner, and all you're doing is giving the officer time to "discover" that you're dangerous based on his observation of your nervousness. You don't want to go there.

"Am I being detained?" If yes, "For suspicion of what specific crime are you detaining me?" If no, "Have a nice day officer." and walk away.

If the officer refuses to say, or seems to say both yes and no, announce, "Any reasonable person in these circumstances would feel as though he were not allowed to leave, I have nothing more to say." Then say absolutely nothing. Don't answer even the most harmless question; the officer is just trying to get the ball rolling. Once the ball is rolling, you are in a consensual friendly encounter.

If the officer tells you the crime for which he is detaining you is 'carrying a gun' or something similar, tell him, "We both know that is not a crime, I have nothing more to say." Again, say nothing other than, "Am I free to leave?" Be FIRM but undeniably polite.

Trust me, it's hard to say that to an officer. I'm not just making all this up, I've DONE it. It's very liberating to ask, "Am I being detained" and have the officer look startled and answer no, then walking away trying not to grin.

 

[sawah]

Meanwhile, actual criminals were cavorting and creating mayhem all around these attentive officers.

 

[Vitaeus]

I am a bit conflicted. The officer responding to the call doing nothing but observing and then "educating" the 911 caller would be a good response, but a calm consensual encounter that does not intrude into "papers, please" or other such ends is also educational to the general public. The ideal response would be the 911 dispatcher explaining to the concerned citizen that Open Cary is legal in WA.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

I can't listen to the audio, but if the OP consented to the encounter what is it that happened for him to complain about?

If there were four officers surrounding him, then an argument could be made that he was detained. If he consented to the encounter before he was surrounded, and encouraged the continuance of the encounter by discussing anything with the first officer, than it would lean toward a consensual encounter regardless.

It's tough NOT to debate them, I know and I've been there; my criticism is based on my personal experiences. But what I discovered was that because the goals of each party are completely different, it's not a debate at all. We want to PROVE by argument that OC is lawful and doesn't rise to the level of necessitating a police encounter. The police, on the other hand, are going to argue for two reasons, to make OC a hassle for you, and to make it appear to the reporting party that they're doing something. If the debate is not a debate at all, then there will never be a winner, and all you're doing is giving the officer time to "discover" that you're dangerous based on his observation of your nervousness. You don't want to go there.

"Am I being detained?" If yes, "For suspicion of what specific crime are you detaining me?" If no, "Have a nice day officer." and walk away.

If the officer refuses to say, or seems to say both yes and no, announce, "Any reasonable person in these circumstances would feel as though he were not allowed to leave, I have nothing more to say." Then say absolutely nothing. Don't answer even the most harmless question; the officer is just trying to get the ball rolling. Once the ball is rolling, you are in a consensual friendly encounter.

If the officer tells you the crime for which he is detaining you is 'carrying a gun' or something similar, tell him, "We both know that is not a crime, I have nothing more to say." Again, say nothing other than, "Am I free to leave?" Be FIRM but undeniably polite.

Trust me, it's hard to say that to an officer. I'm not just making all this up, I've DONE it. It's very liberating to ask, "Am I being detained" and have the officer look startled and answer no, then walking away trying not to grin.

What if he says those people say you were concealing I need to see your CPL. Well I am detaining you until you provide me with a CPL or a name and birth date so I can check if you have one and then you are free to go? My PC is they saw you concealing it doesn't concern me you are Openly carrying it now? Not saying something gets you arrested for obstruction, saying something sacrifices your rights and potential freedom if you may be in the system for something else. Like in this instance if the suspect drove away they now know he doesn't have a license. Not criticizing the OP or your post just looking for input and discussion.