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Supreme court law makes open carry reasonable suspicion?

twoskinsonemanns

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Apr 12, 2012
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WV
That seems absurd. So basically at all times I need to give my name whenever asked to dispel any suspicion that they could fabricate to run my name? But I may use my 5th amendment right at times? I was always under the impression that unless an actual crime can be presented that I am involved in or have committed that I do not have to provide ANY IDENTIFICATION. Otherwise, they could literally make anything up for anyone to "legally" check everyone out. Thanks again, I understand how frustrating someone like me can be with questions, I just see so much conflicting info. Cheers!

But In this case of me legally openly carrying that alone is technically not considered suspicious activit
This will vary from state to state. In WV there's no law that I can find but I did find a ruling. A person was convicted for obstruction for not providing their proper name to a cop. The cop was looking for someone he had a warrant for. Anyway it was turned over by the Supreme Court of Appeals.
In the court's written opinion "a law enforcement officer has (to) communicated the reason why the citizen's name is being sought in relation to the officer's official duties.
 

color of law

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That seems absurd. So basically at all times I need to give my name whenever asked to dispel any suspicion that they could fabricate to run my name? But I may use my 5th amendment right at times? I was always under the impression that unless an actual crime can be presented that I am involved in or have committed that I do not have to provide ANY IDENTIFICATION. Otherwise, they could literally make anything up for anyone to "legally" check everyone out. Thanks again, I understand how frustrating someone like me can be with questions, I just see so much conflicting info. Cheers!

But In this case of me legally openly carrying that alone is technically not considered suspicious activit
No!!!!!!!

Terry v. Ohio basically says: Reasonable articulable suspicion is a legal standard of proof that is less than probable cause. Reasonable articulable suspicion must be more than an inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or hunch. It must be based on specific and articulable facts, taken together with rational inferences from those facts and the suspicion must be associated with the specific individual. If the cops additionally have reasonable suspicion that the detained person is armed and dangerous, they may frisk the person for weapons, but not for contraband like drugs. Reasonable suspicion is evaluated using the reasonable person or reasonable officer standard in which said person in the same circumstances could reasonably suspect a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity. It depends upon the totality of circumstances, and can result from a combination of particular facts, even if each is individually innocuous.

In other words, if the cop cannot tell you why s/he wants to talk to you then you have no obligation to converse with the cop. That means you have no obligation to tell the cop your name, rank or serial number. Not even your mommies name or shoe size, period.

Now, if the cop says s/he thinks you are about the rob the jewelry store because you are standing on the sidewalk looking in the store front window at 2 a.m. Then per Hiibel all you are required to do is give your name and nothing more. Not your rank or serial number, not even your mommies name or shoe size.

And other than having your driver's license on you when driving, you are not required under any circumstance required to have any form of ID on your person.

Caveat, some states require you to have on your person a conceal carry license when carrying.
 
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Grapeshot

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--snipped--

And other than having your driver's license on you when driving, you are not required under any circumstance required to have any form of ID on your person.

Caveat, some states require you to have on your person a conceal carry license when carrying.
Some states (ex: Virginia) require that if you are CCing that you have your permit AND an approved government issued ID that has a photograph.

"The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the U.S. Department of Defense or U.S. State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer."
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.01

Note RAS still applies.
 

Maverick9

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Mid-atlantic
So, Virginia with most of the permit holders in the VCIN, and license plate readers, can you be stopped and permit demanded, absent RAS? I'd say yes.

If your permit is shown to be expired can you be stopped (carrying that day, or not), and is the expired permit declared RAS (note, declared might be different than actual)? I'd say yes.

It gets my ire that legal permit holders are in a 'criminal' database, BTW.
 

color of law

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Some states (ex: Virginia) require that if you are CCing that you have your permit AND an approved government issued ID that has a photograph.

"The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the U.S. Department of Defense or U.S. State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer."
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.01

Note RAS still applies.
Yes, I should have said some states require a license to open carry.
 

color of law

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So, Virginia with most of the permit holders in the VCIN, and license plate readers, can you be stopped and permit demanded, absent RAS? I'd say yes.

If your permit is shown to be expired can you be stopped (carrying that day, or not), and is the expired permit declared RAS (note, declared might be different than actual)? I'd say yes.

It gets my ire that legal permit holders are in a 'criminal' database, BTW.
I would think not. License plate readers are looking for warrants. In most states (and I would bet all states) there is no correlation between license plate and driver license. Corporations, LLC, and trusts own cars and are licensed under the Corporations, LLC, and trusts name, a fictitious "person."
Also, does the cop pulling over the car know who is driving? That is considered a hunch and hunches do not rise to the level of RAS.
 

Maverick9

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Mid-atlantic
I would think not. License plate readers are looking for warrants. In most states (and I would bet all states) there is no correlation between license plate and driver license. Corporations, LLC, and trusts own cars and are licensed under the Corporations, LLC, and trusts name, a fictitious "person."
Also, does the cop pulling over the car know who is driving? That is considered a hunch and hunches do not rise to the level of RAS.
Oh, you are SO WRONG, my friend! Of course how would you know? I'll tell you:

The Statie that stopped me going by him at 40mph, him pulled 10 feet off the road, perpendicular to traffic, managed to read my plate, discover I had a CHP, discover my registration was expired (the car had been garaged all Summer) and within 10 seconds he had pulled out and got behind me and hit the flashers.

So 1) it's not looking for warrants, only.
2) he can definitely hook up plate number with Va Driver's license
3) locate me in the VCIN and find I had a permit. When he asked about my firearm I said 'do you want to see my permit?' he said "no, I know you have one".

Thus, if driving, you can be stopped for (make up anything you like, from 'intermittent tail light' (a favorite, no can contest) to 'tire went over the double yellow') and an attempt to seize your firearm can be made - in Virginia, at least.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,252
Location
northern wis
Some one once told me there is a "million" reasons to stop a car all you need is one of them.

Most registration stickers are color coded so spotting an expired one is easy.
 
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