Terrorists under every Bush?

[Freedom First]

This very interesting article makes clear the fallacy that our "fears" of terrorism are an artificial construct.

And here's the bit that makes DHS and all the naked scannings seem so insane, "overall, a comparable number of Americans are crushed to death by their televisions or furniture each year."

The Blogasaurus --> Terrorists under every Bush? Or Obama?

Enjoy!

 

[j4l]

This very interesting article makes clear the fallacy that our "fears" of terrorism are an artificial construct.

And here's the bit that makes DHS and all the naked scannings seem so insane, "overall, a comparable number of Americans are crushed to death by their televisions or furniture each year."

The Blogasaurus --> Terrorists under every Bush? Or Obama?

Enjoy!

(INSERT FACEPLAM OF YOUR CHOICE, HERE)

Rather than bash you here (even though, you should probably BE bashed here), I'll give you a couple of documented/witnessed facts of life to keep in mind:

1) Sept. 11 wasnt a movie on tv. It actually DID take place, -not by any domestic agents/govt. entities, or shadow-governments.

2) Nearly 3000 of our citizens were, in fact, killed that day by Islamic terrorists. Not by falling t.v.s, or furniture -(and not that any appliance or furniture apparattus has ever conspired to, trained to, and/or carried-out physical attacks on humans-except in Road-Runner cartoons) It's not about the #s of people killed before, or since, it's about HOW and by WHOM they were killed. I can assure you, had one of your loved-ones been amongst those killed in those attacks, your attitude would likely be very very different.



3) Those terrorists who carried out those attacks, lived and worked amongst us-via legal and less-than-legal infiltration. For every one of those who actually participated in the attacks themselves, upwards of 20-30 more folks assisted them- material, financial, logistical, recon, etc. We call them "cells". They were,have been and continue to be and operate amongst us, and they were, have and continue to strive to carry out attacks at some point in the future.

4)None of the 3000+ folks who got up, went to work, travel or whatever in their day-to-day lives that day, had any reason to think what happened to them would happen to them. Just like you today. YOU, however, dont get a choice in the matter.
If Jihad Bob decides to strap a vest to his chest and walk into where you happen to be today-game over. And Im pretty sure you wont mistake that attack as coming from a T.V. or a chair.


Now, does that mean all these TSA scans and all that crap make any sense? No. That's just Goverment being government, and seeing a oppty. to put more controls into effect, create some more agencies with which to have to fund with tax $$$, and a knee-jerk "HEY ! LOOK WE'RE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT, WITHOUT OFFENDING ANY PARTICULAR MURDERING SAVAGES, SPECIFICALLY" reaction.
Try not to buy or read too much into it, eh, sparky?

 

[Jack House]

So your only evidence, JL4, of a current, active terrorist threat against the citizens within US borders is one event that happened 11 years ago?

 

[j4l]

So your only evidence, JL4, of a current, active terrorist threat against the citizens within US borders is one event that happened 11 years ago?

all that's needed, really.
but how many more do u need?

 

[skidmark]

j4l -

Are you upset about

They aren't coming to invade America. They aren't hiding in our Walmart stores. They aren't your neighbors. The statistically minute number of freaks who are willing to attack in the name of Jihad are irrelivent and our reactions to the lies and misinformation put out by our government and the media has been wrong. We need to push back against these lies and demand redress by whatever means required that they surrender back to the people the very Rights they have stolen through these terrorist lies.

I'll agree with you that there are some folks who are coming here to try to blow us up, they are in fact hiding out at Wal-Mart, and they are your neighbors. But compared to the sheer number of folks who do not know what jihad means, let alone how to spell or pronounce it, yet are determined to harm us, the "terrorists" are so few as to be insignificant to everybody except those they actually harm. Sorry if it sounds cruel and cold, but that's just the way it is.

9/11/01 happened. There is no dispute about that. But what, besides bluster and posturing that decreased over time and even was considered less believable over time by the committed jihad-seeking community, has been declared as a credible threat? Security theater has caught just how many terrorists without first recruiting them and arranging to provide them with realistic-looking props? I do not believe that the present administration to keep secret even a small fraction of terrorist plots discovered and thwarted that did not involve near-entrapment behavior to begin with.

Please explain what has you so upset.

stay safe.

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

Really? One event over a decade ago justifies continual government control and infringement on our rights and daily lives?

 

[twoskinsonemanns]

Really? One event over a decade ago justifies continual government control and infringement on our rights and daily lives?

MANY people feel that way.
Was just having this discussion yesterday with a guy in the Democrats-are-the-devil and Republicans-are-the-truth-and-the-light camp. Basic viewpoint is ANY civil liberty violations are ok because they are necessary to avoid further 9-11s

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

I used to think like that. And now that I see things differently, I cannot comprehend how anyone still thinks that way. Intellectually, I get it, but I still don't understand it.

 

[j4l]

j4l -

Are you upset about

I'll agree with you that there are some folks who are coming here to try to blow us up, they are in fact hiding out at Wal-Mart, and they are your neighbors. But compared to the sheer number of folks who do not know what jihad means, let alone how to spell or pronounce it, yet are determined to harm us, the "terrorists" are so few as to be insignificant to everybody except those they actually harm. Sorry if it sounds cruel and cold, but that's just the way it is.

9/11/01 happened. There is no dispute about that. But what, besides bluster and posturing that decreased over time and even was considered less believable over time by the committed jihad-seeking community, has been declared as a credible threat? Security theater has caught just how many terrorists without first recruiting them and arranging to provide them with realistic-looking props? I do not believe that the present administration to keep secret even a small fraction of terrorist plots discovered and thwarted that did not involve near-entrapment behavior to begin with.

Please explain what has you so upset.

stay safe.

The manufactured/entrapped situations I disagree with entirely. I feel they are a tremendous waste of time/energy/resources on folks who are, really, a joke-at best. (Hutaree "Militia" as a perfect example). But I feel it is a waste because they are taking an "easy way out" with such "investigations" instead of going after actual Jihadists, who actually do pose a threat, and have the training and know-how to carry out those threats someday.
The current administration is so adverse to (and so successfully lobbied against doing so, by CAIR, etc) "offending" -Heaven forbid, the folks that are actually likely to comprise those threats.

The fact that most recent/current actual threats have been hampered/prevented does not mean they just suddenly washed up, gave up, and went away. One tends to forget these folks are far more patient than most our folks. They are, and do, take their sweet time preparing.
The 9/11 plot wasnt hatched, overnight, by a handful of ragtags on a whim. Somewhere close to 10 years worth of preperations were under-taken before they finally pulled it off. And that was almost entirely WITHOUT the hinderance of our side being vigillant, being aware of their presence, or catching on to, or acting against their plot.

So-now alerted to, hunting down, and acting against their plots- and the precautions put in place to try to thart them- the cells have to move much more slowly, much more discreetly, and so forth.
Why NOT take precautions against such attacks?

 

[Jack House]

You say they're out there, they have the training and resources to carry out attacks and are unhindered by investigations because the investigators are busy with irrelevant nobodies. So why haven't they attacked yet?

 

[Freedom First]

So your only evidence, JL4, of a current, active terrorist threat against the citizens within US borders is one event that happened 11 years ago?

Sorry to start the inevitable argument but there are more than a few unanswered questions out there pertaining to 9/11. BUT, even if the 9/11 narrative is complete and totally factual, does the single event warrant the kind of response we have seen since then?

Patriot Act?

VIPR teams?

TSA orifice scans?

Assassination of American citizen by the POTUS?

Internet filtering, sifting and storage?

Drones (soon to be armed) in the skies of America?

And it goes on and on and on... And who are these efforts aimed at? Muslim terrorists? Or Americans who screwed up and actually read the Constitution and maybe don't like what they see?

Yes, 2,996 people died that day. Yes, many others were wounded and have even died from the effects of being there. And now we have killed an unknown number of people, some sources say a million or more, many in the lands where the attacks were celebrated. Problem solved? Apparently not. The question in my mind is always: Who benefits?


"Empires do not suffer emptiness of purpose at the time of their creation. It is when they have become established that aims are lost and replaced by vague ritual."

Does an empire require an external enemy? Speaking historically, the answer is yes. We had the Reds for generations. Now they are "dealt with" and we needed something else for the American people to focus on rather than the actual sources of their frustration, i.e. government, taxes, police abuses, loss of Rights, etc.. And it is working, more or less. In the past it would have worked perfectly but this darned internet thing is allow us a peek behind the curtain and we don't like what we see.

I'm sorry to desecrate the 9/11 mythos but I believe that we must examine with distrust everything we are TOLD by those in power. To assume that those who serve in government are all well meaning and decent people is foolish at best.

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." Daniel Webster

 

[DrakeZ07]

*SNIPPY*Sorry to start the inevitable argument but there are more than a few unanswered questions out there pertaining to 9/11. BUT, even if the 9/11 narrative is complete and totally factual, does the single event warrant the kind of response we have seen since then?

Patriot Act?

VIPR teams?

TSA orifice scans?

Assassination of American citizen by the POTUS?

Internet filtering, sifting and storage?

Drones (soon to be armed) in the skies of America?*SNIP*

Hmm, who was the last person assassinated, directly, by our President's hands? I don't recall seeing anything relating to President Obama grabbing a rifle, and sniping some poor idiot. And where is your proof, that the current President has ordered any indirect assignations of U.S. citizens who was not a threat to the peace and supreme law of the land? Oh, and exactly WHICH "POTUS" are you referring to? Bush Jr?, Clinton? Bush Sr? I'm sure we had armed drones even back to Regan's time.

Yes, tell me more, about these drone's in the skies of our country, hmm? do you have video proof, and pictures to back up your claim, [here's the kicker] that wasn't taken,a nd posted on a far-right-wing-over-zealous-nut-job's pitiful excuse for a blogsite that borders on civil bashing through latent lies?

 

[Dreamer]

(INSERT FACEPLAM OF YOUR CHOICE, HERE)

Rather than bash you here (even though, you should probably BE bashed here), I'll give you a couple of documented/witnessed facts of life to keep in mind:

1) Sept. 11 wasnt a movie on tv. It actually DID take place, -not by any domestic agents/govt. entities, or shadow-governments.

Actually, it WAS a movie--about a year before, in the fall of 2000. There was a pilot episode of a spin-off series from X-Files called "Lone Gunman" that had the storyline of a government-sponsored black-op false flag operation where 2 airliners would be flown, by clandestinely-installed radio controllers, into the WTC towers, as a premise to whip up public support for expanded wars in the middle east...

Oh, yeah, and the NYT best-selling author John Nance wrote a book that released in 2000 called "Blackout" that was about a commercial jet being flown into the WTC by terrorists.

Oh, yeah, and Tom Clancy's book from 1994, "Debt of Honor" used the same storyline...

But you're right, this was not a movie, and it was DEFINITELY not something that ANYONE could have predicted, let alone, scripted and planned...

2) Nearly 3000 of our citizens were, in fact, killed that day by Islamic terrorists. Not by falling t.v.s, or furniture -(and not that any appliance or furniture apparattus has ever conspired to, trained to, and/or carried-out physical attacks on humans-except in Road-Runner cartoons) It's not about the #s of people killed before, or since, it's about HOW and by WHOM they were killed. I can assure you, had one of your loved-ones been amongst those killed in those attacks, your attitude would likely be very very different.

Well, if you define "Islamic" as someone who would go to strip bars, get drunk, and smoke cigarettes, then yeah, maybe you are right. If you define "Islamic" as someone who was not an active member of AMY mosque in the US, and had not made Haj, then I suppose you might be right.

If you define "suicide terrorist" as someone who, several months after being identified as dying during the attack, turns up alive and well in some other part of the country (or world), as was the case with something like 7 of the "terrorists"...

Not discounting the 3000+ people who died in the "9/11 attacks" at all, but the fact is that according to the CDC, about 10 times that many people die each year in the US in automobile-related accidents. About three times that many people die each year in firearms-related events. About twice that many people die each year falling off ladders or roofs.

But for some strange reason there isn't a concerted effort on the part of our government or the media to have a "war on driving" or a "war on ladders"...

3) Those terrorists who carried out those attacks, lived and worked amongst us-via legal and less-than-legal infiltration. For every one of those who actually participated in the attacks themselves, upwards of 20-30 more folks assisted them- material, financial, logistical, recon, etc. We call them "cells". They were,have been and continue to be and operate amongst us, and they were, have and continue to strive to carry out attacks at some point in the future.

And many of them CONTINUED to live and work among us AFTER they supposedly died in the crashes, as were reported by major news outlets all over the world. Pretty interesting, eh? So, apparently not only are these "terrorists" hell-bent on killing Americans even if they have to commit suicide to do it, but they are IMMORTAL, and somehow managed to survive these events, and then turn up all over the world months later.

Yeah, that makes sense...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1559151.stm

4)None of the 3000+ folks who got up, went to work, travel or whatever in their day-to-day lives that day, had any reason to think what happened to them would happen to them. Just like you today. YOU, however, dont get a choice in the matter.
If Jihad Bob decides to strap a vest to his chest and walk into where you happen to be today-game over. And Im pretty sure you wont mistake that attack as coming from a T.V. or a chair.

I bet none of the young men who woke up in US military barracks in the mid-1960s thought they would be shipped off to die in a war based on a government-fabricated lie either (Gulf of Tonkin). But the Military-Industrial Complex gleefully sacrificed 40,000+ American lives on the alter of greed, militaristic expansion and increased profits in that little "adventure"...

Now, does that mean all these TSA scans and all that crap make any sense? No. That's just Goverment being government, and seeing a oppty. to put more controls into effect, create some more agencies with which to have to fund with tax $$$, and a knee-jerk "HEY ! LOOK WE'RE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT, WITHOUT OFFENDING ANY PARTICULAR MURDERING SAVAGES, SPECIFICALLY" reaction.
Try not to buy or read too much into it, eh, sparky?

TSA has NOTHING to do with the government being a bureaucracy out of control--it is all about dehumanizing and conditioning the populace to get them to accept living in a prison culture. It's not about profits anymore. It's not about corporate expansion anymore--the "ruling elite" already own everything. Events like 9/11 and the expansion of TSA and DHS powers are about CONTROL over every last facet of the lives of individual people. It is about absolute control--which is what the psychopaths at the "top" are really all about.

They tell you what sort of toilet you can own. They tell you what sort of light bulbs you can use. They tell you what sort of milk you can drink. The force you to take medicines that are proven to do more harm than good.

The world is run by psychopaths and sociopaths, and they are, for the most part, not scruffy men living in caves wearing turbans. They are Ivy-League educated descendents of European Royalty, wearing Brooks Brothers suits and attending secret meetings several times a year that they claim don't exist...

Sociopaths will ALWAYS rise to the top in any organized culture. This is an indesputable truth of sociology. We are just unfortunate enough to be living in the segment of history where they are throwing off their cloaks of secrecy and allowing their sociopathic hubris to express itself in the full openness of their control-freak glory.

WTFU...

 

[Freedom First]

Hmm, who was the last person assassinated, directly, by our President's hands? I don't recall seeing anything relating to President Obama grabbing a rifle, and sniping some poor idiot. And where is your proof, that the current President has ordered any indirect assignations of U.S. citizens who was not a threat to the peace and supreme law of the land? Oh, and exactly WHICH "POTUS" are you referring to? Bush Jr?, Clinton? Bush Sr? I'm sure we had armed drones even back to Regan's time.

Yes, tell me more, about these drone's in the skies of our country, hmm? do you have video proof, and pictures to back up your claim, [here's the kicker] that wasn't taken,a nd posted on a far-right-wing-over-zealous-nut-job's pitiful excuse for a blogsite that borders on civil bashing through latent lies?

"The buck stops here." Ike

Did Bush or Obama pick up a rifle and do their own dirty work? Never. Will every president from this day on have an assumed authority to designate anyone as a "terrorist" and then have them removed from the gene pool? You bet.

Anwar al-Awlaki, scumbag terrorist and American citizen was killed by the US government with specific authority to act from Barack Obama. LINK And another LINK And another LINK

It was nice the way you put in there a little caveat, "who was not a threat to the peace and supreme law of the land?" Like that makes it justified to kill a man, scumbag though he may be, without charges and a trial as demanded by the Bill of Rights? Let me quote that for you...

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Personally I would always err on the side of the Rights of a man.

A very weak case (based on the words: "or public danger") can be made that if (and that's a BIG IF) a man is a threat; direct and immediate, to the safety of the American people, and he cannot be apprehended to be brought to trial then the option to kill him is on the table. I would say that is a stretch too far. It will be abused.

Then again, somehow we functioned as a nation without this undefined and un-enumerated power of the federal government in the hands of the POTUS for all this time without using it. Why not? It's wrong. Why now? BECAUSE THEY THEY CAN.

 

[Freedom First]

The world is run by psychopaths and sociopaths, and they are, for the most part, not scruffy men living in caves wearing turbans. They are Ivy-League educated descendents of European Royalty, wearing Brooks Brothers suits and attending secret meetings several times a year that they claim don't exist...

Sociopaths will ALWAYS rise to the top in any organized culture. This is an indesputable truth of sociology. We are just unfortunate enough to be living in the segment of history where they are throwing off their cloaks of secrecy and allowing their sociopathic hubris to express itself in the full openness of their control-freak glory.

I want a Brooks Brothers tin foil hat... That would be too cool.

Sounds like you will be resisting? You won't be alone.

III

 

[Jack House]

Hmm, who was the last person assassinated, directly, by our President's hands? I don't recall seeing anything relating to President Obama grabbing a rifle, and sniping some poor idiot. And where is your proof, that the current President has ordered any indirect assignations of U.S. citizens who was not a threat to the peace and supreme law of the land? Oh, and exactly WHICH "POTUS" are you referring to? Bush Jr?, Clinton? Bush Sr? I'm sure we had armed drones even back to Regan's time.

Yes, tell me more, about these drone's in the skies of our country, hmm? do you have video proof, and pictures to back up your claim, [here's the kicker] that wasn't taken,a nd posted on a far-right-wing-over-zealous-nut-job's pitiful excuse for a blogsite that borders on civil bashing through latent lies?

Maybe you should reread this post and then the one before yours. Your blind defense of Obama makes you look like a government sympathizer and apologist. Well, you are at least an apologist. Your entire argument was basically that the crimes of this administration should be ignored because past administrations committed similar crimes. This is complete hogwash and utterly pointless to the context of your comment anyway! Hint: Obama was not singled out by the post you quoted. Where Obama's name could have been, POTUS was used in it's place. This signifies that the user does not care who the president is and feels that it's wrong regardless.

 

[Freedom First]

...This signifies that the user does not care who the president is and feels that it's wrong regardless.

No I don't and yes I do. Thanks for noticing!

 

[DrakeZ07]

Maybe you should reread this post and then the one before yours. Your blind defense of Obama makes you look like a government sympathizer and apologist. Well, you are at least an apologist. Your entire argument was basically that the crimes of this administration should be ignored because past administrations committed similar crimes. This is complete hogwash and utterly pointless to the context of your comment anyway! Hint: Obama was not singled out by the post you quoted. Where Obama's name could have been, POTUS was used in it's place. This signifies that the user does not care who the president is and feels that it's wrong regardless.

So its a bad thing now to have a different opinion, and thought pattern from your own, and others who share your own opinion? Huh, could've swore it was alright to make a post requesting facts, and stating an opinion, sorry for my mistake.

Also, I can't tell, but, are you mad?

 

[Freedom First]

So its a bad thing now to have a different opinion, and thought pattern from your own, and others who share your own opinion? Huh, could've swore it was alright to make a post requesting facts, and stating an opinion, sorry for my mistake.

Also, I can't tell, but, are you mad?

You get your answers?

And of course opinions are still really legal here on OCDO! There's room for everyone; right, wrong or in the middle. That's why I'm here.

I think he's just unwilling to beat around the Bush.

 

[Gil223]

The Blogasaurus --> Terrorists under every Bush? Or Obama?

Enjoy!

Personally, I don't trust blogs as a reliable source for much of anything. However, I do agree that "We need to push back against these lies..." Pax...