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The great arming is underway, and that’s a very good thing for our nation . . .

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
4,603
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
After almost 50 years of gun control and absolutely no return on investment The Gun Control Act of 1968 needs to be repealed. Or in the alternative, found to be unconstitutional.
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
4,603
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
"Nationwide, 6.5% adults have a concealed handgun permit. Outside of California and New York, 8 percent of adults have a permit."

So, what part of the Three Percenters are concealed handgun permit holders? And what part of the Three Percenters are open carriers?

The Three Percenters (also styled "3%ers") is an American "patriot movement" which pledges resistance against the United States government regarding infringement of the United States Constitution.

"There are now over 16.3 million permit holders,..." There is a little over 4 million federal employees including military.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
What is the average fee all states for a permit?.

Gun stocks are holding steady.. Sorry to say, when the crime rate goes up, gun stocks go up.. My .02

Regards
CCJ
 

MamaLiberty

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
895
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
And, more and more, responsible people of the gun are having nothing to do with the stinking 'permits' - or the tracking and recording they enable. Get over it!

And what has happened to this forum? It seems to be more and more about "concealed" carry anyway? What happened to "Open Carry?"
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,888
Location
North Carolina
And, more and more, responsible people of the gun are having nothing to do with the stinking 'permits' - or the tracking and recording they enable. Get over it!

And what has happened to this forum? It seems to be more and more about "concealed" carry anyway? What happened to "Open Carry?"
We are still about open carry, just a lot of advocates have disappeared over the years. Add in the obsession with politics, and lack of OC, or general firearms talk I would imagine some have migrated to forums where they still talk about firearms.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
And, more and more, responsible people of the gun are having nothing to do with the stinking 'permits' - or the tracking and recording they enable. Get over it!

And what has happened to this forum? It seems to be more and more about "concealed" carry anyway? What happened to "Open Carry?"
+1 on nothing to do with stinking permits... Permit is just another disguised name for TAX..

Mamaliberty, please return, this board is in need of more liberty minded folks..

Best regards
CCJ
 

MamaLiberty

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
895
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
We are still about open carry, just a lot of advocates have disappeared over the years. Add in the obsession with politics, and lack of OC, or general firearms talk I would imagine some have migrated to forums where they still talk about firearms.
Guilty as charged... :( I used to look at this forum daily, then weekly, then eventually almost never. Same reason, unfortunately. Since I am not interested in discussions (arguments?) over who is president or any of the other electoral political stuff, long ago outgrew the caliber and gun brand wars, and can't understand why so many people bow down and worship the "permit," it just hasn't been inviting here. I spend a daily few minutes reading over at TTAG, but even that has become "The Truth About Suppressors" - and a lot of weird gear I'd never use - to a great extent. Phewy

Maybe, instead of only talking about how law abiding and wonderful all those "permit holders" are, we should at least mention all of the people who carry openly, and/or don't knuckle under to the "permit" thing. We're part of that demographic that does NOT shoot people who don't attack us, every bit as much as permit holders. We just don't get tracked or studied much.

I live in NE Wyoming. I have carried for many years, mostly OC, but often CC as well - since I teach armed self defense and CC is part of that. Got to practice what you teach. :) I have never had a stinking "license" and never will. My concern with this national reciprocity is in giving the feds more power in any way shape or form. It may seem like a great idea if you don't look at it too closely... but you can bet the farm that the "great arming" will come to a screeching halt soon after, if it passes. And it won't matter what the "law" says, any more than the clear wording of the 2A... The feds don't seem to have a problem perverting anything when it suits them.
 

MamaLiberty

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
895
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
+1 on nothing to do with stinking permits... Permit is just another disguised name for TAX..

Mamaliberty, please return, this board is in need of more liberty minded folks..

Best regards
CCJ
Let's you and me (and anyone else) start posting some threads with real meat in them again. I'm willing. :) Maybe we can pull some other folks back from all the drek.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,888
Location
North Carolina
Two of the most active sites I am on the majority of talk is about firearms, gear, and reloading. Yea they are hung up on the almighty permit, but OC folks are starting to speak up. One of the sites does not allow any politics.

I can understand some politics talk, especially during the campaign season, but it has got outright out of hand on here IMO.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
Let's you and me (and anyone else) start posting some threads with real meat in them again. I'm willing. :) Maybe we can pull some other folks back from all the drek.
Like you, I am anti license, anti permit, I feel both are nothing but a tax on our right. And the Supremes in Murdock V PA articulated that "states do not have the power to license or tax a right guaranteed to the people"... While Murdock was a first amendment issue, clearly the ruling applies to other rights and amendments.. That being said, there are a few statist here that accuse me of rule violations for posting my anti license anti permit theory.
There complaint is that I am suggesting others to break the law. That is hardly my intent.

If all the so-called law abiding permit and license holding tax paying citizens ALL joined together and said no, I shall NO longer pay a tax to exercise my natural God given, constitutional right, the G would have no authority nor power and their infringing and inconveniencing would cease to exist. Surely the numbers are in our favor, however the G relies on fear and ignorance, they understand that most folks are content with accepting a government issued privilege as opposed to fighting for their rights.. Read United States v Minker, to wit, " because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens because of their respect for what ONLY appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their rights due to ignorance'.

Mamaliberty, it will be a true joy having another anti license, anti permit, anti tax of our rights advocate here on OCDO. If you don't mind, I will send you a PM.

Regards
CCJ
 

MamaLiberty

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
895
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
Two of the most active sites I am on the majority of talk is about firearms, gear, and reloading. Yea they are hung up on the almighty permit, but OC folks are starting to speak up. One of the sites does not allow any politics.

I can understand some politics talk, especially during the campaign season, but it has got outright out of hand on here IMO.
Indeed. :) The electoral politics thing leaves me cold. But I can ignore those areas easily. What gets to me is the "wars" aspect of the other discussions. Instead of simply comparing options, preferences and possibilities, far too much of the "discussion" is disrespectful or outright hostile. At least it was the last time I visited here... which certainly didn't draw me back. I'm as opinionated and contrary as anyone else, but I don't expect everyone to walk in the same path or always agree with me. And I suspect that anyone new to guns and shooting would be very unlikely to ask good questions or seek our advice... if they can see right away that they'll get their head bitten off. Why would they come back here? What a shame.
 

MamaLiberty

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
895
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
Mamaliberty, it will be a true joy having another anti license, anti permit, anti tax of our rights advocate here on OCDO. If you don't mind, I will send you a PM.

Regards
CCJ
I look forward to hearing from you!

You might like to read an article I wrote some time ago for my own blog. https://thepriceofliberty.org/by-what-legitimate-authority/ Here is an excerpt:

The question not being asked by most of us is: By what legitimate authority? How does anyone legitimately gain authority to control the lives and choices of other people against their will?

Did you ever ask a politician, a gun grabber, a public school teacher, a bureaucrat… “By what legitimate authority do you demand, order, enforce, do these things?”

I have. Most, of course, cite the “constitution” and/or “the rule of law.” I then ask them how those things can confer LEGITIMATE authority. Where does legitimate authority over people’s lives and property originate?

So far, NONE of them can answer that, and most become extremely angry when questioned at all. Yet I would think that is the most important question we can ask.

And it’s the most important question we can ask ourselves. Do we own our lives, or have we given our sovereign and natural authority over ourselves to the rulers and politicians?
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
I look forward to hearing from you!

You might like to read an article I wrote some time ago for my own blog. https://thepriceofliberty.org/by-what-legitimate-authority/ Here is an excerpt:

The question not being asked by most of us is: By what legitimate authority? How does anyone legitimately gain authority to control the lives and choices of other people against their will?

Did you ever ask a politician, a gun grabber, a public school teacher, a bureaucrat… “By what legitimate authority do you demand, order, enforce, do these things?”

I have. Most, of course, cite the “constitution” and/or “the rule of law.” I then ask them how those things can confer LEGITIMATE authority. Where does legitimate authority over people’s lives and property originate?

So far, NONE of them can answer that, and most become extremely angry when questioned at all. Yet I would think that is the most important question we can ask.

And it’s the most important question we can ask ourselves. Do we own our lives, or have we given our sovereign and natural authority over ourselves to the rulers and politicians?
A person after my own heart, See my signature.. I shall be in touch.
Regards
CCJ
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
4,603
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
I look forward to hearing from you!

You might like to read an article I wrote some time ago for my own blog. https://thepriceofliberty.org/by-what-legitimate-authority/ Here is an excerpt:

The question not being asked by most of us is: By what legitimate authority? How does anyone legitimately gain authority to control the lives and choices of other people against their will?

Did you ever ask a politician, a gun grabber, a public school teacher, a bureaucrat… “By what legitimate authority do you demand, order, enforce, do these things?”

I have. Most, of course, cite the “constitution” and/or “the rule of law.” I then ask them how those things can confer LEGITIMATE authority. Where does legitimate authority over people’s lives and property originate?

So far, NONE of them can answer that, and most become extremely angry when questioned at all. Yet I would think that is the most important question we can ask.

And it’s the most important question we can ask ourselves. Do we own our lives, or have we given our sovereign and natural authority over ourselves to the rulers and politicians?
Agreed. But, we (meaning in general) have allowed the legislators to steal our rights and the courts support that theft. The three branches of gov. are not separate anymore.
 

MamaLiberty

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
895
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
Agreed. But, we (meaning in general) have allowed the legislators to steal our rights and the courts support that theft. The three branches of gov. are not separate anymore.
Doesn't matter if there are three or three thousand, or three million "legislators" or "branches" of the government. None of them have any legitimate authority to do anything unless you "allow" it. Not all of us allow it. Of course, we are seriously outnumbered now, but the more people who withdraw that permission, the less they can take from everyone. Not going to be easy, of course. We might have to actually fight for it.

I am not a part of that "we." I have a gun to my head, like everyone else, but I do not willingly consent to being ruled by others.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
Doesn't matter if there are three or three thousand, or three million "legislators" or "branches" of the government. None of them have any legitimate authority to do anything unless you "allow" it. Not all of us allow it. Of course, we are seriously outnumbered now, but the more people who withdraw that permission, the less they can take from everyone. Not going to be easy, of course. We might have to actually fight for it.

I am not a part of that "we." I have a gun to my head, like everyone else, but I do not willingly consent to being ruled by others.
A 21st century Lysander Spooner,, outstanding!

The problem could simply be that most men enjoy their government issued privileges as opposed to standing up and fighting for their rights.. Most of those men are known by the government issued moniker " law abiding citizen". Until said citizens want to fight for more freedoms and lose said moniker, the fight for freedom from government issued privileges E.G. Permission slips, licensing, taxes, etc will be a rather tough challenge. However like Thomas Paine said " the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph"..

My .02
Regards
CCJ
 

JamesCanby

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,480
Location
Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
A 21st century Lysander Spooner,, outstanding!

The problem could simply be that most men enjoy their government issued privileges as opposed to standing up and fighting for their rights.. Most of those men are known by the government issued moniker " law abiding citizen". Until said citizens want to fight for more freedoms and lose said moniker, the fight for freedom from government issued privileges E.G. Permission slips, licensing, taxes, etc will be a rather tough challenge. However like Thomas Paine said " the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph"..

My .02
Regards
CCJ
So... you are advocating that we cease being "law abiding citizens?"
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
And, more and more, responsible people of the gun are having nothing to do with the stinking 'permits' - or the tracking and recording they enable. Get over it!

And what has happened to this forum? It seems to be more and more about "concealed" carry anyway? What happened to "Open Carry?"
In the last 25 years we've gone from 1 State permit free CC, and 1 or 2 State with non-discriminatory permits to 40+ States non-discriminatory and some 14 that have some form of permit-free carry. By this sites own maps, we've got about 14 States are "gold star open carry". I don't know how much that has improved in the last 25 years.

But so long as the federal GFSZ law is on the books, the only way to legally comply with the law while not carefully mapping your daily route to try to avoid the 1000 foot (as the crow flies) exclusion zone, is to hold a permit (or to carry an antique gun not covered by the law). Certainly you are not advocating for violation of laws in contradiction of site rules are you?

The reason we've moved from 1 permit-free State to 14 permit-free States is because the RKBA carries a lot more political clout today than it did 25 or 30 years ago. 35 years ago, our opposition figured RKBA was dying and they just needed to wait. As the nation became more urbanized and fewer people hunted, the gun culture was dying. In the wake of the GCA of '68 and the GFSZ law of 1990 and the Scary Looking Gun Ban of 1994, we were not going to get anything like the widespread ability to freely carry a gun for self defense either OC or CC. But the rise of non-discriminatory permits (and backlash to the over-reach of the 1994 gun ban) added a lot of voters to the ranks of gun owners and gun carriers. Those numbers have allowed for a steady, incremental improvement toward ever greater statutory recognition of the Right to KBA. In addition to gaining the practical ability to carry, we've also seen improvements in laws regarding the actual use of a gun in self defense. Most notable among these are the various "No Duty to Retreat" laws (pejoratively known as "Stand Your Ground" laws).

It is good to keep the end goal in sight. It is also good to remember enough history to know why we are where we are, thus to be able to plot a course with a reasonable chance of success.

As for the discussion topic, as Lott himself acknowledges in his report, it is very difficult to get hard data on how many people are carrying in places that don't require a permit. But by looking at how the numbers and demographics of permit holders has changed over the last 20 years, we can get some good insights into the culture. While we'd never support requiring permits to enable such research, so long as permits are required in most States, we might as well use the data to our advantage.
 
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