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Toddler fatally shoots mom in Idaho Walmart

WalkingWolf

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Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,912
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North Carolina
I don't necessarily speak for WW, but I don't believe there is hostility towards CC, there is hostility over the fact that there is a legal distinction between the 2 and that it makes no sense.

It makes me laugh every time I'm at my house and I'm OCing, then I go out for a smoke and put on my 3/4 length jacket while making the joke, "Welp, now I'm illegal but only if I step into the street." It's really absurd. I often show people the difference between legal OC and legal CC and they always laugh and don't believe me until I cite specific laws. Same with vehicle carry.

EDIT* But you ARE taking the CC argument personal. Concealing is hiding. There is no shame in that. I see no reason to argue to the contrary since concealing is by definition hiding.

I support CC, I just don't support a permit system to do so. I believe in the REAL CC, Constitutional Carry.
The permit system is pure racism, it is a holdover from poll taxes.
 

WalkingWolf

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North Carolina
Hey. Look. You figured out how to quote me. Very good. Want a Scooby snack?

Is your "credibility" comment intended as a personal insult and attack in violation of Rule 6 banning personal attacks? Can't you simply communicate without making everything personal?

Off body carry, whether OC/CC or otherwise is the issue here NOT OC vs CC.

I've NEVER claimed OC was/is racist. I defy you to quote anything I've written that could conceivably be construed to that end.

I've repeatedly pointed out that hostility to concealed/discrete carry is founded in racist history.

Why do you keep equating hostility to concealed/discrete carry to OC?

Charles
You just provided your own cite!
 

utbagpiper

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Messages
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Utah
EDIT* But you ARE taking the CC argument personal. Concealing is hiding. There is no shame in that. I see no reason to argue to the contrary since concealing is by definition hiding.

I support CC, I just don't support a permit system to do so. I believe in the REAL CC, Constitutional Carry.

Nothing personal and I've not made any personal attacks. Words matter and words have meaning.

That is why our opponents use terms like "assault rifle" and why we object despite the fact that the dictionary makes clear that any rifle and most anything else could be used to "assault" someone.

Would you or anyone else suggest a couple is "hiding" their physical affection by drawing the shades in their home before making love? Or would we use the term "privacy" for that? Yes, one can argue that the two are synonyms. But we all understand the clear implications of one word over another. "Hiding" suggests something untoward, while "privacy" or "discretion" are honorable. Cheating spouses "hide" their affair. Married couples are appropriately "discrete" in where they engage in their most "private" conduct.

If I were king for a day, I'd do away with the permit system most States require to conceal (and that the feds require to carry within 1000' of a school zone) and most other gun laws for that matter. But I'm not king. And I believe the permit system, while constitutionally offensive has helped move us toward greater statutory recognition of our rights than at any period since probably 1870. Our rights were lost a bit at a time, we are regaining them a bit at a time.

Please avoid letting your dislike of the permit system turn into dislike of concealed carry itself, or even those who chose to CC for whatever private reason they may have.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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The supreme court has ruled that there is no right to conceal carry. They made it clear there is a right to open carry.

Citations please?

More importantly, do you agree with that ruling? Or do you believe there is a right to peacefully carry as a person sees fit?

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Utah
The permit system is pure racism, it is a holdover from poll taxes.

The permit system is not the same as concealed carry itself.

I note that 5 States allow permit-free concealed carry in most situations. Many other States, my own included, do not prohibit concealed carry in certain situations.

And like it or not, federal law requires a permit for any form of carry within 1000' of a school. For many, this means that federal law effectively requires a permit to legally OC most places these people go about their daily lives. I trust nobody is going to suggest we violate federal gun laws in this regard.


Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Utah
When asked I tell women of the safety concerns of purse carry, as far as the rest of your BS it is the same as your OC racism claims. I certainly do not tell women to OC or CC, but was replying to your nonsense about a women should conceal because of fashion.:uhoh:

I never said as woman should conceal because of fashion. I said I believe that women might choose to conceal because of their own view of fashion, rather than simply because of social stigma.

Do feel free to find the quote where I said women "should" carry one way or another.

Nor have I ever said that OC was racist. I've said that opposition to concealed carry is rooted in racist history.

Please stop attributing false positions to me. If you cannot understand what I write ask for clarification honestly, or simply ignore me.

Charles
 

Maverick9

Regular Member
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Apr 7, 2013
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Mid-atlantic
For me, the best argument for a female to OC is the deterrent factor. Picture a 5'3" skinny girl "hiding her gun" walking to her car in a dark parking lot. If an attacker was scoping her out and tailing her, he has no idea she is armed so he will likely more aggressively pursue her than if she was carrying a visible firearm.

I don't want to come right out and say that certain sized or certain types of people shouldn't OC, BUT, I think you're vastly underestimating the chutzpah and determination of a skilled predator and also underestimating the need for females to be helpful and listen to strangers.

I think it would be almost easy for a knowledgeable and skilled predator to walk right up to a skinny 5'3" girl and ask to borrow her gun...

("Hi, I work for Glock, can I see your firearm for a second, we're offering a 2 for one Glock T-shirt give away for certain models as a promotional offer"),

...or take it or dare her to shoot him and still get it due to reflex lag.

Not all small females, mind you but those 'special types' are not common.

FWIW.
 
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Firearms Iinstuctor

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Jul 12, 2011
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3,345
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northern wis
.

I think it would be almost easy for a knowledgeable and skilled predator to walk right up to a skinny 5'3" girl and ask to borrow her gun...

("Hi, I work for Glock, can I see your firearm for a second, we're offering a 2 for one Glock T-shirt give away for certain models as a promotional offer"),

...or take it or dare her to shoot him and still get it due to reflex lag.

Not all small females, mind you but those 'special types' are not common.

FWIW.

And some men

Situational awareness is important at all times but is hard to maintain ones self at high alert all the time.
 

utbagpiper

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Situational awareness is important at all times but is hard to maintain ones self at high alert all the time.

Just as some have admitted to CC so as to avoid the social issues of OCing, I've known some who admitted to CCing so as to avoid or minimize the risks of not maintaining as high of SA as they should while OCing.

Obviously, one reason for using a retention holster while OCing is to prevent someone else getting control of the firearm.

While I'm not going to support or oppose, some do seem to hold that CCing provides the advantage of keeping a gun available while reducing the risk of having the gun taken from them before they need to use it.

Visible OC might provide a deterrence factor. Discrete CC might reduce the risks of having a gun taken.

I say, carry as you see fit within the bounds of the law.

Charles
 

The Truth

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Henrico
Just as some have admitted to CC so as to avoid the social issues of OCing, I've known some who admitted to CCing so as to avoid or minimize the risks of not maintaining as high of SA as they should while OCing.

Obviously, one reason for using a retention holster while OCing is to prevent someone else getting control of the firearm.

While I'm not going to support or oppose, some do seem to hold that CCing provides the advantage of keeping a gun available while reducing the risk of having the gun taken from them before they need to use it.

Visible OC might provide a deterrence factor. Discrete CC might reduce the risks of having a gun taken.

I say, carry as you see fit within the bounds of the law.

Charles

I carry my Glock with a snap strap leather holster even though I hate the strap and don't carry any of my other pistols with a strap. The reason I carry my Glock this way is because of the lack of an external "switch" safety. It's really just for peace of mind. I'm not really worried about a gun snatcher, although I'm always at high alert when OC. My P229 I carry in double action with a round in the chamber no strap. My 1911 I carry cocked with a round in the chamber and the safety on with no strap. I occasionally use the strap with my 1911 but not usually.

Maverick9 said:
I don't want to come right out and say that certain sized or certain types of people shouldn't OC, BUT, I think you're vastly underestimating the chutzpah and determination of a skilled predator and also underestimating the need for females to be helpful and listen to strangers.

I think it would be almost easy for a knowledgeable and skilled predator to walk right up to a skinny 5'3" girl and ask to borrow her gun...

("Hi, I work for Glock, can I see your firearm for a second, we're offering a 2 for one Glock T-shirt give away for certain models as a promotional offer"),

...or take it or dare her to shoot him and still get it due to reflex lag.

Not all small females, mind you but those 'special types' are not common.

FWIW.

I don't think she would be very receptive to a guy asking about her pistol in a dark parking lot...haha. She's definitely a tough broad, just needs a little more practice drawing and shooting. I'll show her your post though, so thanks for the thoughts!
 

Maverick9

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Mid-atlantic
Well the newest story out is that the firearm was in a zippered special compartment in the purse her husband bought her and get this...

The 2 year old allegedly unzipped the purse, got the gun out and shot her in the head!

I find that almost totally unbelievable. Yet that's what the news agencies are saying.

Hope they release the video footage, even if blurred or something. I think we're being fed a line.

Oh, and according to the rest of the story the manager was standing right there and walked up and took the gun from the child. Wow.
 

WalkingWolf

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Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,912
Location
North Carolina
Well the newest story out is that the firearm was in a zippered special compartment in the purse her husband bought her and get this...

The 2 year old allegedly unzipped the purse, got the gun out and shot her in the head!

I find that almost totally unbelievable. Yet that's what the news agencies are saying.

Hope they release the video footage, even if blurred or something. I think we're being fed a line.

Oh, and according to the rest of the story the manager was standing right there and walked up and took the gun from the child. Wow.

How would they know, I doubt the cameras could see into her purse, and doubt the two year old put it back and zipped the compartment. Xray surveillance cameras?
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,331
Location
Valhalla
If we spent half the time working to further our rights as we do arguing and disagreeing with each other and compiling a litany of "You said,I said", we might have Constitutional Carry in a majority of the states. That we do not totally agree with each other on every nuance of OC and/or RKBA is hardly reason to divert threads and beat that poor horse. A majority of us here want the same thing(s) regarding the ability to defend ourselves and our loved ones.

We must let others have their say and accept their explanation/clarification when asked for and given.

Extended discourse (especially off topic) that are tantamount to harrassment will not be ignored. Edits and infraction points to follow if this reminder cannot or will not be heeded.
 

Pat Gardner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
Messages
70
Location
Plummer Id
I live in Plummer Idaho and my wife and i go shopping at the Hayden id Walmart all the time and i open carry there every time. This is the first time i have heard of such a thing like this happening there. My family will be Praying for the family and the toddler. I did read a article somewhere today on this story, if i can find the article i will post it. It said that even though this Tragedy has happen they will still abide by state law and allow the carrying of firearms in their store.

Here is the link to the article

http://www.ibtimes.com/toddler-shoo...aho-walmart-store-responds-gun-policy-1770366
 

WalkingWolf

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Jul 31, 2011
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North Carolina
Walmart is a huge company, occasionally stuff is going to happen. It appears that they hold fast to good marketing principles in spite of isolated instances of tragedy.
 

Logan 5

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
689
Location
Utah
If we spent half the time working to further our rights as we do arguing and disagreeing with each other and compiling a litany of "You said,I said", we might have Constitutional Carry in a majority of the states. That we do not totally agree with each other on every nuance of OC and/or RKBA is hardly reason to divert threads and beat that poor horse. A majority of us here want the same thing(s) regarding the ability to defend ourselves and our loved ones.

We must let others have their say and accept their explanation/clarification when asked for and given.

+10
 
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