georg jetson
Regular Member
Nonsense. Provide some.
My argument is superior anyway.
What evidence will you accept?
What argument?
Edit - Oh... I think you refer to your post #18. Sorry.
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Nonsense. Provide some.
My argument is superior anyway.
you may blame activist Dr. Benjamin Spock's child rearing philosophical BS tomes combined with the counterculture of the '60s for the current state of affairs with the social status of everyone watching your child rearing efforts.
Further, the youngsters themselves know how to and do play the game w/child protective services/LE etc., and not thinking twice or about the consequences of throwing their caregivers under the moving bus when they feel slighted in any way.
additionally, as has been proven in several of the child sexual abuse cases, memory implants into the child's mind by 'innocent' but over zealous investigators shows how some will pursue this to advance their careers.
Educators are in the most precarious spot between the rock and the hard spot of mandatory reporting if the child accuses the parents of corporal punishment events. We all know youngsters who would benefit from a swat on the behind to get their attention, yet we fail to do so because society's watchdogs would pounce on us in a heartbeat based on their perception it is abuse.
please do not construe my comments as advocating physical abuse from a parent in an emotional frenzy who is beating their child senseless or using using hot car track on a youngster.
however, these are the stats the 'PhD' researcher(s) use in their studies for their empirical data to support their claims. unfortunately, like those who propagate anti vaccination or firearm or any other type of sensationalized rhetoric, the uneducated public believes and sheepishly follows believing the researcher's word as if it handed down from the Mount by charlton heston!
ipse
What evidence will you accept?
A convincing argument that non-subservient individuals (or even most individuals) are capable to internalizing corporal punishment as being fundamentally their fault.
Human psychology just doesn't work that way, I'm sorry. If you hit me, for any reason whatever, the entirety of my emotional response is externalized and directed against you. I certainly do not stop to ask whether it was somehow my fault that you hit me, and neither does any other normal, healthy human.
I might act in such a way as to avoid you hitting me further, but that's not the same thing as meaningfully believing that it was my fault that you hit me.
Basically, hitting people pisses them off, and you don't convince people to adopt your mode of thinking by ******* them off. The most you can ever hope for is obedience while they believe you're watching.
sorry your analogy is flawed since you are using your adult perceptions(non-subservient individuals, my emotional response, hitting people, hitting me, etc.,) verses a child's, (who is in fact subservient to their caregiver for their existence) perceptions whose psychology isn't that mature nor biased so children can, in fact, understand if punishment, corporal or otherwise, is administered immediately after an incident, so it shows they are being held accountable for their actions.
the caveat is when punishment is delayed 'till your father gets home' then the child has difficulty associating their punishment with the incident. remember our prisons are filled with individuals who truly believe they are innocent!!
Yeah, except I (sort of) remember being a child. So, no, I don't think the "analogy" is flawed. There's never been a point in my life where I responded positively to authority or punishment, or accorded feigned respect on demand, etc.
My parents spanked me, but very infrequently. Regardless of how sparingly used, I cannot remember a single misdeed on my own part to prompt corporal punishment. All I can remember is crying or being angry (depending on age) as a result.
Children are dependent on their parents, but I believe it's a mistake to teach them to be subservient to anybody, including parents. You should, as soon as possible, begin teaching them (by example) to be responsible, for reasons they can justify (not out of fear).
I just don't buy it. Plenty of people are raised with corporal punishment and turn out like crap. That correlation is every bit as strong, from what I've seen. If kids turn out well, it's because their parents paid attention, provided instruction when needed, and set a good example on a consistent basis. That is the sine qua non of good parenting; the use corporal punishment is about as relevant as the brand of shoes the parents buy.
No, I don't think so. If I was spanked, it was always immediately, never "when my father gets home". As I said, I don't have a single association between an instance of being spanked and a misdeed on my part -- although I do remember being spanked.
Still don't buy it.
So, do any of you actually remember an instance when you got spanked or belted or whatever, and that itself was the motivating factor to internalize your own responsibility?
A convincing argument that non-subservient individuals (or even most individuals) are capable to internalizing corporal punishment as being fundamentally their fault.
Human psychology just doesn't work that way, I'm sorry. If you hit me, for any reason whatever, the entirety of my emotional response is externalized and directed against you. I certainly do not stop to ask whether it was somehow my fault that you hit me, and neither does any other normal, healthy human.
I might act in such a way as to avoid you hitting me further, but that's not the same thing as meaningfully believing that it was my fault that you hit me.
Basically, hitting people pisses them off, and you don't convince people to adopt your mode of thinking by ******* them off. The most you can ever hope for is obedience while they believe you're watching.
to start out your rebuttal in the first sentence with: quote I (sort of) remember being a child unquote proves my point that children lack the ability to process the environment around them. additionally, you state you did nothing wrong yet received CP, I am sure if we consulted your caregivers they would tell a different tale, and as stated, there are plenty of folk in prison who profess their status of being not doing anything wrong and are unjustly being punished.
sorry, but when you emotionally state: quote: plenty of ppl are raised with CP and turned out like crap. unquote is this 50% of the population (or how much of the population per se) who have turned out like crap, then I am sure there is a significant percentage or gaggle of ppl who experienced corporal punishment who have turned out to be law biding citizens assisting society in their adulthood.
WAIT...you yourself admit to being administered CP so you have a choice of being in the CRAP side of your equation or the contributing adult to society side!
I am more concerned with your opening statement: quote: There's never been a point in my life where I responded positively to authority....unquote!!
ipse
I am more concerned with your opening statement: quote: There's never been a point in my life where I responded positively to authority....unquote!!
Solus has pointed out that your analogy is flawed, but let me add:
There is a correct way to use corporal punishment and an incorrect way.
Initially, when a child is very young, it doesn't matter that the child believes that it's their fault. It only matters that it does what it's told so that it doesn't injure itself or others. As children grow older they need to be taught things have consequences without actually experiencing the "real" consequences like jail, living on the street etc.
In general discipline is necessary to teach a child how to become an adult. Initially, children respond to very little, having not learned the language, physical pain is the most basic teaching tool. As they get older, higher forms of discipline can be used such as deprivation of toys, playtime etc. However, the higher forms of discipline are reinforced with corporal punishment. Little Jimmy gets a time-out for failing to listen. However, he insists on playing Xbox while punished. Little Jimmy gets his tail whipped and experiences pain he would choose to give up the toy for. Next time little JImmy will wait out his punishment time without touching the Xbox.
Spanking the child doesn't make them think anything other than "If I don't listen, then It'll hurt.. a lot!" Spanking them gets their attention so you can use high forms of both discipline and rewards to get them to understand. They must listen in order for this to happen.
Anecdotally speaking, I did a decent job of disciplining my 2 children using corporal punishment as part of my strategy. Both are very libertarian, and one open carries... I don't want to use the "appeal to authority" argument, but I believe once you have children to discipline, you'll understand the complicated dynamics involved and the importance of getting them to listen to you.
The biggest problem I see parents having is that there seems to be no place for them to learn how to use corporal punishment appropriately.
Anybody else notice how Stephanie Hayden looked in that mug shot? Can you say 'meth bugs', boys and girls?
snip...
I just don't buy it. Plenty of people are raised with corporal punishment and turn out like crap. That correlation is every bit as strong, from what I've seen.
snip
Your reasoning is slipping. I did not state nor imply (nor do I believe) that corporal punishment causes kids to turn out like "crap" ....
i'm sorry which post am i suppose to believe as you contradict yourself all in a matter of hours. sine qua non parenting includes discipline imposed by CP imposed to a child by a caregiver who is emotionally in control of themselves to hold a child accountable for their actions.
Indeed. Without condoning criminal prosecution in this instance, it's not necessary to belt kids in the first place. Problem: solved.
Seriously?
All I did was point out a correlation. Moreover, the whole point of my argument is that correlation does not imply causation.
Is that really so difficult for you? If you can't engage like an adult, this conversation is over.
your inital statement is not a correlation, is it?
secondly, i find it quite interesting , the self professed anarchist who states they have never responded positively to authority at any point in his life, must resort to condensening comments towards someone who is engaged in a discussion w/them as well as then threaten to end said conversation.
sorry, that is not anarchist type behaviour being exhibited but your entire series of bravado rant(s) is just you showing your learned oppositional defiant behaviour response! you may self justify your current actions and behaviours behind your use of the term anarchist to impress others, however, it won't fly with this adult who knows better!
There are some kids that are so "hard-headed", even downright combative that the only way to get their attention is a little judicious pain.
I don't the kind of pain that leaves bruises but red marks from a switch, your hand, a flywhatter, or even a rolled up newspaper may be needed to break through their aggression and "shock" them into stopping long enough to get their attention.
I also agree that this shouldn't be done in anger as it is harder for the person dispensing the punishment to gauge both its potential damage and its effects.
Then there are those kids (usu. teens) that need a 2x4 upside their heads.