Utah lawmaker proposes bringing back firing squads for executions.

[scott58dh]

.

 

[davidmcbeth]

Anyone here really trust the gov't to be able to do anything right?

Bet your life on it?

 

[Gil223]

Anyone here really trust the gov't to be able to do anything right?

Bet your life on it?

a. Outside of our military... no.
b. I did... for 20 years.

The difference seems to be that our military forces at the "grunt-level" are well-trained (even if only by repetitive instruction, conducted until they get it right) to do their jobs by technical specialists. They must meet certain established performance standards in order to move from one phase of training to the next, more advanced phase - their lives and those of their comrades-in-arms depend on it! Many - if not most - military personnel are trained in more than one job classification. :dude: (BT-DT)

On the other hand, the civilians working for the government at the "grunt level" are generally trained by other bored, unmotivated, overpaid, civilian AFSCME union members (with NO real "training" skills) to the initial level of knowing their schedule (what time breaks are, the best hiding places to kill time, how to make one day's work last for three days, etc). Most of the civilian "job training" is hands-on, with little-to-no direct supervision during "training", and their end product only has to be "close enough for government work". Sub-standard performance is indemnified by their union membership. :shocker: (BT-DT, too)

That's my 2¢ worth. Pax...

 

[Gallowmere]

I fail to see a problem here. Dead is dead, and bullets cost FAR less than the juice needed for Ol' Sparky, or the chemicals needed for the green needle. Once the government has decided that someone needs to be killed, not much will change their minds. Might as well be efficient about it.

Plus, firing squads open up all kinds of room for awesome last words. "Take a step forward lads - it'll be easier that way." by Robert Erskine Childers for example, or "Ik schiet beter!" (I could shoot better!) by Hannie Schaft, whilst being executed by some Nazis with particularly poor aim, who's first rounds either missed entirely, or only wounded her (accounts vary).

 

[mark-in-texas]

Yes, but the FDA will step in and claim high velocity lead poisioning isn't "approved."

 

[Gallowmere]

Yes, but the FDA will step in and claim high velocity lead poisioning isn't "approved."

There's a simple solution to that. Just use bullets with a TCJ, and a steel core. Might have to shoot a few times though, because those boogers tend to just go straight through, with relatively little trauma caused. Hmmm...maybe put some kevlar on the person to be executed, just to slow them down a bit as they pass through. Call it "more humane".

 

[utbagpiper]

I opposed eliminating the firing squad in the first place and would favor bringing it back. It was eliminated only because legislators thought it brought "too much attention" to Utah's executions.

Well, as a proponent of capital punishment, I'm also a proponent of having a certain amount of "attention" on executions.

First of all, I'd like criminals to be well aware of the fact that not only is capital punishment a theoretical possibility in Utah, but that it really does happen (at least from time to time).

More importantly, I'd like judges, juries, legislators, and the electorate at large to be fully cognizant of what capital punishment is. It is the deliberate, state-sanctioned, ending of a human life. Even when richly deserved, even required, capital punishment is a most serious matter. It ought to make decent men--even among its most ardent supporters--pause, and be uncomfortable.

While decent men and any others who abide the constitutional prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment do not wish to see condemned persons tortured or suffering for the sake of suffering, neither should we wish to see executions become so sterile that they don't rouse in us some discomfort. I'm reminded of the old Star Trek (the original series) episode entitled "A Taste of Armageddon" in which two worlds are waging war via computer games with no damage to infrastructure, and with death so clean and painless there is no reason to work for peace. Just as the horrors of real war should give us pause in rushing to war, so too, I believe, capital punishment should not be so clean as to not give us cause for pause before employing it.

On top of that, bullets to the heart are effective and humane. They are not entirely without some pain and discomfort, but do not rise anywhere close to the level of cruel or unusual punishment banned in a day when torturous executions including drawing and quartering, strangulation hanging, the rack, the iron maiden, and other such implements were common. Indeed, following WWII and the Nuremberg trials, the condemned Nazis requested/demanded that their sentences be carried out by firing squad rather than hanging. They were denied on the basis that firing squad was reserved for executions of honorable soldiers, while common criminals were to be hanged. But firing squad is less prone to torturous errors than is hanging. It is immune to problems of bad veins that will impede execution by IV. Firing squads do not require any medical expertise. They don't require any specialized equipment, nor any on-going supply of special drugs.

If necessary, a small modification to the procedure to include a second volley to the head should the volley to the heart not result in death within some prescribed, short time, would impose an upper time limit on any pain felt by the condemned. It is more messy, and precludes any open-casket funeral. But that is the least of the risks one takes if s/he commits a capital crime.

Charles

 

[F350]

a. Outside of our military... no.
b. I did... for 20 years.

T

On the other hand, the civilians working for the government at the "grunt level" are generally trained by other bored, unmotivated, overpaid, civilian AFSCME union members (with NO real "training" skills) to the initial level of knowing their schedule (what time breaks are, the best hiding places to kill time, how to make one day's work last for three days, etc). Most of the civilian "job training" is hands-on, with little-to-no direct supervision during "training", and their end product only has to be "close enough for government work". Sub-standard performance is indemnified by their union membership. :shocker: (BT-DT, too)

That's my 2¢ worth. Pax...

I rather resent that characterization; as a telecommunications tech with 25+ years experience and more training seminars than I can count I was infinitely more competent than any 19/20 yr old army type with one class on one switch I worked with during 2 years in Iraq. AND I might add more dedicated to maintaining a communications network, most of the army KIDS just wanted to play video games and listen to rap.

 

[Gil223]

I rather resent that characterization; as a telecommunications tech with 25+ years experience and more training seminars than I can count I was infinitely more competent than any 19/20 yr old army type with one class on one switch I worked with during 2 years in Iraq. AND I might add more dedicated to maintaining a communications network, most of the army KIDS just wanted to play video games and listen to rap.

The problem with generalizations is that there's always somebody that tkes it personally. I do not know you, and I did not address my comments to you specifically. That is strictly my opinion, based on over 20 years of working around and with civilian government employees, and I will stand by what I said in a general sense. Pax...

 

[Gil223]

Now, to the subject of Utah's tradition of execution by firing squad. The cost of the drugs used in lethal injections runs from just under $84 to $1,287 (StanDown Texas Project - an anti-death penalty group). That kinda runs the gamut from not bad, to OMG! Both electricity and bullets (30.06 - $1.50 per rnd) are MUCH less expensive, and rope is a "renewable (reusable) resource". I believe in capital punishment for any heinous offense, which in my world would include at the minimum murder, arson involving loss of life, rape, torture, kidnapping and intentional maiming. There are people among us who are truly evil, and are beyond any hope of redemption and reintroduction to society (the perpetrators of the Hi-Fi Shop murders of 1974, in Ogden UT were three such individuals. Two of them committed four of the six aforementioned crimes in a single episode, the third never entered the shop). Oddly, in my world there would not be "hate crimes". Attitude is not a crime, it is a state of mind. We have identified and codified every conceivable physical act of crime, and in those crimes there must be an act which results in some "loss" experienced by the victim. Thoughts are not physical actions - we cannot wish someone dead (well, we can WISH it, but we will be sorely disappointed when our wish is not granted). It would require a physical act to turn that wish into a reality. My 2¢ worth. Pax...

 

[Logan 5]

Yo know what's cheaper? The gas chamber. Don't use HCN (hydrogen cyanide), use carbon monoxide. Cheaper than bullets and cleaner. Hook up a four cycle motorcycle engine to the chamber and get it going. 5 minutes later, the guy is dead.

Or use nitrogen. A few years back some guys at NASA in Texas (IIRC) died when they walked into a chamber using nitrogen and it hadn't been vented yet. They felt no pain or anxiety. They were dead before they hit the floor.

Or reopen some of the abandoned coal mines and throw them in there. Close it up, and the hydrogen/methane/nitrogen/oxygen mix'll kill them. Though far more enjoyable. With that stuff you start hallucinating. A friend had a couple old coal mines on his ranch and we checked out the fossils inside one. I assure you, the H/CH3/N/O mix will get you seeing all sorts of weird ****. That stuff's better than Nitrous.

Or dump them in Lake Powell just up from the dam. 800'+ deep and once they get sucked into the hydroelectric genny intake, they're fish food for the next 20 miles downstream. No charge, no autopsy, no burial. Best deal yet.

 

[Gil223]

Yo know what's cheaper? The gas chamber. Don't use HCN (hydrogen cyanide), use carbon monoxide. Cheaper than bullets and cleaner. Hook up a four cycle motorcycle engine to the chamber and get it going. 5 minutes later, the guy is dead.

Or use nitrogen. A few years back some guys at NASA in Texas (IIRC) died when they walked into a chamber using nitrogen and it hadn't been vented yet. They felt no pain or anxiety. They were dead before they hit the floor.

Or reopen some of the abandoned coal mines and throw them in there. Close it up, and the hydrogen/methane/nitrogen/oxygen mix'll kill them. Though far more enjoyable. With that stuff you start hallucinating. A friend had a couple old coal mines on his ranch and we checked out the fossils inside one. I assure you, the H/CH3/N/O mix will get you seeing all sorts of weird ****. That stuff's better than Nitrous.

Or dump them in Lake Powell just up from the dam. 800'+ deep and once they get sucked into the hydroelectric genny intake, they're fish food for the next 20 miles downstream. No charge, no autopsy, no burial. Best deal yet.

I like THIS idea...

 

[F350]

Yo know what's cheaper? The gas chamber. Don't use HCN (hydrogen cyanide), use carbon monoxide. Cheaper than bullets and cleaner. Hook up a four cycle motorcycle engine to the chamber and get it going. 5 minutes later, the guy is dead.

Or use nitrogen. A few years back some guys at NASA in Texas (IIRC) died when they walked into a chamber using nitrogen and it hadn't been vented yet. They felt no pain or anxiety. They were dead before they hit the floor.

Or reopen some of the abandoned coal mines and throw them in there. Close it up, and the hydrogen/methane/nitrogen/oxygen mix'll kill them. Though far more enjoyable. With that stuff you start hallucinating. A friend had a couple old coal mines on his ranch and we checked out the fossils inside one. I assure you, the H/CH3/N/O mix will get you seeing all sorts of weird ****. That stuff's better than Nitrous.

Or dump them in Lake Powell just up from the dam. 800'+ deep and once they get sucked into the hydroelectric genny intake, they're fish food for the next 20 miles downstream. No charge, no autopsy, no burial. Best deal yet.

I vote for Zyklon B

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

I used to be a proponent of the death penalty, until I realized how utterly fcuked and fallible our "justice" system is.

Regardless of whether someone deserves execution; it's not a power I want resting in the hands of a corrupt, unaccountable entity like the government.

 

[MAC702]

I'm much more in favor of hard labor or worse. There are plenty of government projects that could use it, especially dangerous jobs. Just because their life is forfeit, doesn't mean it should be wasted.

The hard part is being utterly damn sure you've convicted an evil person.

 

[JamesCanby]

Yo know what's cheaper? The gas chamber. Don't use HCN (hydrogen cyanide), use carbon monoxide. Cheaper than bullets and cleaner. Hook up a four cycle motorcycle engine to the chamber and get it going. 5 minutes later, the guy is dead.

Or use nitrogen. A few years back some guys at NASA in Texas (IIRC) died when they walked into a chamber using nitrogen and it hadn't been vented yet. They felt no pain or anxiety. They were dead before they hit the floor.

Or reopen some of the abandoned coal mines and throw them in there. Close it up, and the hydrogen/methane/nitrogen/oxygen mix'll kill them. Though far more enjoyable. With that stuff you start hallucinating. A friend had a couple old coal mines on his ranch and we checked out the fossils inside one. I assure you, the H/CH3/N/O mix will get you seeing all sorts of weird ****. That stuff's better than Nitrous.

Or dump them in Lake Powell just up from the dam. 800'+ deep and once they get sucked into the hydroelectric genny intake, they're fish food for the next 20 miles downstream. No charge, no autopsy, no burial. Best deal yet.

I like THIS idea...
View attachment 11635

I vote for Zyklon B

I'm much more in favor of hard labor or worse. There are plenty of government projects that could use it, especially dangerous jobs. Just because their life is forfeit, doesn't mean it should be wasted.

The hard part is being utterly damn sure you've convicted an evil person.

Y'all tend to be some relatively nasty people, based on your suggestions -- which I hope were made tongue-in-cheek. For a group of people that adamantly support the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, I wonder how you missed the "cruel and unusual punishment" part. We are not a savage, vengeful society -- at least I hope we are not -- and when a life is to be taken judicially, it should be the most humane execution possible.

As for Mac's comment, I am becoming more and more in favor of bringing back the chain gangs to perform work on projects, so long as we can make sure that the corruption shown in "Cool Hand Luke" does not exist.

 

[Logan 5]

Cruel & unusual punishment. Hmmm.

Helter Skelter.

Albert Fish.

Edward Gein.

Jeffrey Dahmer.

John Wayne Gacy.

 

[JamesCanby]

Cruel & unusual punishment. Hmmm.

Helter Skelter.

Albert Fish.

Edward Gein.

Jeffrey Dahmer.

John Wayne Gacy.

Irrelevant. It does not matter how heinous their crimes were. Our society -- our Constitution -- requires that the judicial termination of a life be humane. While "eye for an eye" may still be a desired concept, the termination of a life for those who illegally terminate a life, or lives, satisfies that aphorism without relegating society to barbarous acts.

 

[Logan 5]

You're right. It's just sick humor.

In real life I would prefer rehabilitating someone long before killing them. So many people in prison, wasting taxpayer dollars, that could be out working and contributing to the economy. Putting people in person for 10+ years is not rehabilitative, nor is it really punishment. It's stupid. $85,000/prisoner/year....?

 

[F350]

Y'all tend to be some relatively nasty people, based on your suggestions -- which I hope were made tongue-in-cheek. For a group of people that adamantly support the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, I wonder how you missed the "cruel and unusual punishment" part. We are not a savage, vengeful society -- at least I hope we are not -- and when a life is to be taken judicially, it should be the most humane execution possible.

As for Mac's comment, I am becoming more and more in favor of bringing back the chain gangs to perform work on projects, so long as we can make sure that the corruption shown in "Cool Hand Luke" does not exist.

The courts would quickly rule that "cruel & unusual"; how dare you take them out of their air conditioning and deprive them of their cable TV and actually make them do something.

One thing I have noticed about liberal leaning individuals is their total inability to recognize humor; did you fail to see