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Violation of Preemption?

acmariner99

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
659
Location
Renton, Wa
Twice in the past two weeks I have encountered signs at parks indicating that possession and/or use of firearms is prohibited. One was at Rattlesnake Lake and the other was at a park in Mountlake Terrace where I am currently living. It is my understanding that WA state preemption laws prohibit cities from enacting stricter rules than the state and this is an example. I remember the mayor of Seattle being ridiculed for trying to enact and enforce similar legislation there. I can provide pictures for one of the parks in a day or two. Feedback?
 

Jayd1981

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
387
Location
Richland, Washington, USA
Yes that would be a violation of preemption if the parks are city owned. Several of us have been down that road. First you'll want to find the city ordinance that is banning firearms from parks. Then start a letter writing campaign. Contact the mayor and city counsel first. I had to go to a friendly local senator in order to be heard. Others have also gone to public meetings when they wouldn't respond to them. Either way it is a tedious process, but is achievable. I wouldn't worry about the pictures, rather find the laws that are being preempted and get to work.
 

jbone

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Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,233
Location
WA
I wouldn't worry about the pictures,
You remember the ole saying about pictures? Just me, but I would take the pictures, you never know when they will come in handy, prove a point, be introduced as evidence, or a nice 8x10 visual aid at a council meeting showing all how the council insists on willingly defying state law.
I say document with pictures.
 
Last edited:

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
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Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,165
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
Do they enforcethe rule? Have you approached the park people and asked about the validity of the sign? I have been told that some parks cannot or will not replace the sign due to finances. My park (bloedell-donovan, it is across the street from me), has a sign with "Not Permitted" sign that lists all kinds of crap. One line has been painted over, the line that USED to say, "No Firearms". It is an easy fix.
 

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,952
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
We're going to see signs out there for years to come that are outdated and have bad info on them. There's NO MONEY in anyone's budget in times like this for replacement of every incorrect sign.

I have a better question, "Has anyone received a citation for just carrying a firearm in a park in the last year?"
 

tombrewster421

Regular Member
Joined
May 25, 2010
Messages
1,327
Location
Roy, WA
Do they enforcethe rule? Have you approached the park people and asked about the validity of the sign? I have been told that some parks cannot or will not replace the sign due to finances. My park (bloedell-donovan, it is across the street from me), has a sign with "Not Permitted" sign that lists all kinds of crap. One line has been painted over, the line that USED to say, "No Firearms". It is an easy fix.
I personally don't care if they're enforcing it. If the sign is there 20+ years after it was repealed by the state, they are just using finances as an excuse to coerce those ignorant of the law from doing what is legal. At some point it may be necessary to prosecute those that are blatantly ignoring state law in an attempt to misinform the public and create an illusion of a ban on firearms.
 

Lante

Regular Member
Joined
May 27, 2009
Messages
122
Location
Kingston, Washington, USA
As far as there being no money for signs Seattle has shown everyone the way with there new parking hours and rates"signs"
What they have done is print stickers with the new information and stick them over the old information.. when told there is no money for new signs this should be the valid alternative.
 

jbone

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Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,233
Location
WA
If the sign is there 20+ years after it was repealed by the state, they are just using finances as an excuse to coerce those ignorant of the law from doing what is legal. At some point it may be necessary to prosecute those that are blatantly ignoring state law in an attempt to misinform the public and create an illusion of a ban on firearms.
Well said!

I wonder how much tax payer cash has been spent across the state printing and posting illegal bans, since preemption. I wonder how many completed work orders are on file across the state that prove monies spent on printing and post of illegal bans, since preemption.
 

fire suppressor

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
873
Location
Kitsap County
Yes that is definitely a violation all the sings really do is deter people from open carrying who don't know any better. Kitsap county where I am still has a few of theses sings up ever after the county announced they would be removing them a few years ago. I recently saw a few still posted at island lake in silverdale and when I asked they parks department why they had not been removed I was told because they didn't have a big enough budget to pay anyone to go around and remove all of them.

RCW 9.41.290 State preemption.

The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.
 

jbone

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,233
Location
WA
fire suppressor;1556846they didn't have a big enough budget to pay anyone to go around and remove all of them.[/QUOTE said:
Call them out! them them you know folks that will volunteer to hang them for free, and what day can you stop by to pick up the signs.:lol:
 

Jayd1981

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
387
Location
Richland, Washington, USA
You remember the ole saying about pictures? Just me, but I would take the pictures, you never know when they will come in handy, prove a point, be introduced as evidence, or a nice 8x10 visual aid at a council meeting showing all how the council insists on willingly defying state law.
I say document with pictures.
At this point he hasn't even posted if there is a law in violation yet. Worrying about pictures before finding the law is kinda like putting the cart before the horse. Atleast to me that is.
 

jbone

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,233
Location
WA
At this point he hasn't even posted if there is a law in violation yet. Worrying about pictures before finding the law is kinda like putting the cart before the horse. Atleast to me that is.
The OP is saying they will take I picture of your (cart) why discourage, let picture be taken. The order in which the OP tackles the issue at this early stage is not dependant on the horse coming first. It appears to be very preliminary fact finding anyway. Nothing unorthodox about retrieving the cart and attaching the horse later.
 

acmariner99

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
659
Location
Renton, Wa
Mountlake Terrace City Code

My first impression is that the signs are outdated the information that I have found in MLT's City Code pertaining to firearms only regulates DISCHARGE in city parks -- which is within their rights according to WA's preemption law:

Mountlake Terrace City Code Chapter 12.10.I (Parks and Recreation, Rules and Regulation): Conducting or participating in activities on public park grounds that may be harmful or injurious to individuals or park property, i.e. model airplane flying, archery, shooting firearms, tackle football, golf, playing baseball in undesignated areas, igniting or discharging common or special fireworks as classified by the State Fireworks Law, or other hazardous activities, shall be prohibited, unless approved, authorized and supervised by the Recreation and Park Department.

The city recognizes RCW 9.41 as the legal authority pertaining to firearms based on the code itself. I will follow up with both the city council and the police department (as to if the signage is actually enforced, not its legality). My source can be found here: http://www.mrsc.org/mc/_toc/mountlaketerrace.htm
 

Jayd1981

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
387
Location
Richland, Washington, USA
Well it sounds like there is no preemption violation. Write letters (emails) to the city parks department to let them know their signs are outdated and misleading. Hopefully this can be rectified at a fairly low level if they are willing to coorperate.
 

amlevin

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Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,952
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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
Well it sounds like there is no preemption violation. Write letters (emails) to the city parks department to let them know their signs are outdated and misleading. Hopefully this can be rectified at a fairly low level if they are willing to coorperate.
And then we'll just have to wait until they have money to make new signs so they can be replaced (or altered which also costs money).
 

Jeff Hayes

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Mar 10, 2009
Messages
2,569
Location
Long gone
When a citizen makes a mistake the goverment entity does not give us much time to pay the fine or fix the problem. It does not seem to mater to the goverment if you are out of work, broke or your car just broke down. They should have to remove or repair the signs in a reasonable time frame. By allowing the goverment to get away with more than they allow a citizen to get away with we are giving the goverment agency more power over the citizens. It needs to be the other way around every time we do this it empowers them more. The signs are wrong take them down.
 

tombrewster421

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Joined
May 25, 2010
Messages
1,327
Location
Roy, WA
When a citizen makes a mistake the goverment entity does not give us much time to pay the fine or fix the problem. It does not seem to mater to the goverment if you are out of work, broke or your car just broke down. They should have to remove or repair the signs in a reasonable time frame. By allowing the goverment to get away with more than they allow a citizen to get away with we are giving the goverment agency more power over the citizens. It needs to be the other way around every time we do this it empowers them more. The signs are wrong take them down.
Well said. I think 20 years is more than enough time.
 

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,165
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
This is the sign at the entrance of Boedel-Donovan. In pic two you see the quick and easy fix. If you have a problem with your sign, maybe a "local vandal" would volunteer a bit of tape or paint.
 
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