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Wonder if there's a way to OC, but hidden in plain sight?

color of law

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^ well I'm not trying to conceal it though if you put a 'housing' on top and carried IWB you'd have to have a permit in most states, true.

I'm just talking about a way to get around the need for a 'cover garment' and to also have an option if someone says 'cover it up' so you can do it but not knuckle under to putting on a shirt or something.

You could even have an OWB holster, but the bottom half would be also camoflaged to look like a large iPhone cover, mating with the top, but again be very thin latex. I know they have these with flaps and snaps, but that still takes time to get to the pre-deploy position. The latex top would stay in place, but not interfere with the operation.

Just pondering...thanks for your reply!
If open carry is legal then who would be ordering you to cover it up???????
 

solus

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^ well I'm not trying to conceal it though if you put a 'housing' on top and carried IWB you'd have to have a permit in most states, true.

I'm just talking about a way to get around the need for a 'cover garment' and to also have an option if someone says 'cover it up' so you can do it but not knuckle under to putting on a shirt or something.

You could even have an OWB holster, but the bottom half would be also camoflaged to look like a large iPhone cover, mating with the top, but again be very thin latex. I know they have these with flaps and snaps, but that still takes time to get to the pre-deploy position. The latex top would stay in place, but not interfere with the operation.

Just pondering...thanks for your reply!

get a hand gun camo painted, which matches the holster and your camo gear pants and shirt

something like this

blended.jpg

ipse
 
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color of law

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get a hand gun camo painted, which matches the holster and your camo gear pants and shirt

something like this

th


ipse
Here, fixed it.
 

WalkingWolf

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In some states hiding a gun in plain sight is considered concealed, such as a FAA revolver, and belt buckle. I would advice against any attempt without a permit to conceal by using hosing, belt buckle, or other obvious attempts to conceal.

Now wearing a black gun with a black shirt and pants in a black holster would not IMO be illegal, or any other clothing that matches the gun/holster color. But I don't OC to hide my gun, I want it seen so there is no confusion that I am not a victim.
 

Wstar425

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In some states hiding a gun in plain sight is considered concealed, such as a FAA revolver, and belt buckle. I would advice against any attempt without a permit to conceal by using hosing, belt buckle, or other obvious attempts to conceal.

Now wearing a black gun with a black shirt and pants in a black holster would not IMO be illegal, or any other clothing that matches the gun/holster color. But I don't OC to hide my gun, I want it seen so there is no confusion that I am not a victim.

Been in several discussions like this on SigTalk which has some notorious anti OC members, from CA and NY, whom I suspect have never OCed nor even seen it? Lots of LE there. No opinions have been changed.......

Topic was discreet open carry and discussing how you might dress in a manner that makes your open carry firearm less noticeable. Went immediately to full on black mall ninja!! That was rich!!

Anyhow, a black patterned shirt, black holster OWB, black firearm combined with the FACT that people basically are unaware of what's going on around them, equals nobody notices and most that do, don't care. I have recently moved from a Northwoods hunting community to a mid state farming community and I do notice some difference in the head swiveling. I open carry into my bank at both places, and everywhere else. I've also played around some with wearing an all white shirt with the same black holster/gun combo and paying attention to reactions. I would say that is more obvious and also attracts more attention.

My opinion would be anything intentionally covering your firearm would be concealing it, in most places. What that then requires pretty much differs depending on which state you're in. I've never had it happen but I suspect if you got asked to leave someplace due to OC and came back in with your gizmo, or even your shirt now untucked, that wouldn't make them much happier?

I do put some thought into where I am going and how much I want to contrast with my gun and holster. I always say if you CAN'T see it, that's concealed. If you DON'T see it, it's not my fault you're not paying attention. This would be me being visible 360 degrees and not sitting in a booth, or standing next to a wall. That's not concealed either, IMO.

I haven't found a place that bans firearms yet that I couldn't get the same service or product at a competitor who did not restrict. So, I'm basically if they won't allow me to come in armed, I don't come in. I have one exception, Foster and Smith, and I'm working on them! No sign of success anywhere in the near future, sadly.
 
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HeroHog

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I had a Stainless Steel .22 NAA mini revolver that I put an eye screw in the butt of and hung from my keys on my belt loop on a quick disconnect. Looked like a keyfob but was a legal openly carried gun in my state. It went unnoticed by everyone but those who recognized it for that particular type of gun.

350px-NorthAmericanMiniRevolver.jpg
 

WalkingWolf

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WS I hate black clothing, besides showing every dog hair it is just downright hot. I am usually in a white or light colored shirt. If there are ivory grips available for my gun, they get those in place of black or wood grips. One carry gun is high polished stainless, and another is nickel plated. Even our Glocks have bright grip tape on them, pink for the wife, and white on mine. Even a person with their head in the clouds would have a hard time not seeing that I am armed. I want criminals to know, and not miss that I am no willing victim.
 

Wstar425

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WS I hate black clothing, besides showing every dog hair it is just downright hot. I am usually in a white or light colored shirt. If there are ivory grips available for my gun, they get those in place of black or wood grips. One carry gun is high polished stainless, and another is nickel plated. Even our Glocks have bright grip tape on them, pink for the wife, and white on mine. Even a person with their head in the clouds would have a hard time not seeing that I am armed. I want criminals to know, and not miss that I am no willing victim.

Yeah, I don't really care how one dresses, or how obvious or unobvious one wants to be. The other half of the equation is the people around you. Some people claim to be able to make every CC person they meet, and then some people wouldn't notice a Civil War cannon rolling by.

I make a lot of eye contact with people. If you pass me and look at my face, you will find I'm probably already looking at you. People don't like to make eye contact with strangers, it seems to me. I also see it as an honesty issue, if you can't look me in the eye while your talking to me, I have issues with that. I'm sure there are other factors, such as self esteem, but making eye contact in a conversation is important to me. Maybe I read too much into that.
 

WalkingWolf

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Yeah, I don't really care how one dresses, or how obvious or unobvious one wants to be. The other half of the equation is the people around you. Some people claim to be able to make every CC person they meet, and then some people wouldn't notice a Civil War cannon rolling by.

I make a lot of eye contact with people. If you pass me and look at my face, you will find I'm probably already looking at you. People don't like to make eye contact with strangers, it seems to me. I also see it as an honesty issue, if you can't look me in the eye while your talking to me, I have issues with that. I'm sure there are other factors, such as self esteem, but making eye contact in a conversation is important to me. Maybe I read too much into that.

I have a mother in law who eye contact is painful, she has one eye that wanders. Of course though I would not trust her whether I could make eye contact or not.
 

utbagpiper

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Who would that be?

Cite please.

I cannot provide a cite as I'm sure the law has since changed explicitly since then. But about 20 to 25 years ago Arizona statute had something about a gun in a visible holster wasn't concealed even if the gun wasn't visible. Think about a gun in one of the old military style flap holsters where the holster is obvious visible, but the gun is completely covered by the holster.

s-l1000.jpg


(Sorry, not sure how to resize how a linked image displays here.)

I remember a few folks back then making the case that fanny packs were so commonly used as holsters that they ought to get the same treatment as the military flap holsters and be considered technically non-concealed, even though the gun wasn't visible. If I recall, the State AG issued an opinion saying essentially, "Nice try, but not quite."

Lots of good changes to Arizona law in the last 20 years that have rendered this question moot what with permit-free concealed carry now allowed. But I do remember, vaguely, the issue coming up in Arizona while I was living there doing some school work in the mid-90s.

Charles
 
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Grapeshot

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I cannot provide a cite as I'm sure the law has since changed explicitly since then. But about 20 to 25 years ago Arizona statute had something about a gun in a visible holster wasn't concealed even if the gun wasn't visible. Think about a gun in one of the old military style flap holsters where the holster is obvious visible, but the gun is completely covered by the holster.

--snipped--

I remember a few folks back then making the case that fanny packs were so commonly used as holsters that they ought to get the same treatment as the military flap holsters and be considered technically non-concealed, even though the gun wasn't visible. If I recall, the State AG issued an opinion saying essentially, "Nice try, but not quite."

Lots of good changes to Arizona law in the last 20 years that have rendered this question moot what with permit-free concealed carry now allowed. But I do remember, vaguely, the issue coming up in Arizona while I was living there doing some school work in the mid-90s.

Charles
Indeed nice try, but a fanny pack is not a flap style holster.
 

Grapeshot

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--snipped--
Also, I'm not sure I asked this, but if you are driving a car in Va and you HAVE a permit and you are OC-ing, do you have to present (if asked) the permit since you are not Conceal-carrying?


I understand that in Va, the rule is 'if carrying in or about the person you must present the permit on demand'. (it says nothing about talking about the firearm).
Not if you are OCing, which is legal w/o a permit. The gun may also be in a secure (not locked) console or glove compartment.

"In the instance of a traffic stop, should I advise the police officer that I have a concealed handgun permit?
Virginia law does not require you to notify the officer that you have a permit. However, Section 18.2-308.01, of the Code of Virginia, requires you to be in possession of the permit whenever you are carrying a concealed handgun and to display the permit and a government-issued photo-identification upon demand by a law-enforcement officer
."
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm
 

utbagpiper

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Indeed nice try, but a fanny pack is not a flap style holster.

Indeed.

But to be fair, I find a certain logic to the argument they made. The only material difference between a flap style holster and a fanny pack holster (as far as such a law regarding OC vs CC might go) is the extent to which a common observer recognizes the "holster" as a holster. Now ignoring all the really bad fashion issues with fanny packs :) the extent to which a fanny pack might be recognized as a holster is almost the same chicken-and-egg problem as with OC.

If enough people do it then it becomes normal. So long as it isn't normal some might claim it is cause for alarm. So long as it is cause for alarm and subject to DOC, brandishing, or other charges, not enough are going to OC to normalize it so it doesn't cause alarm.....

If enough folks used fanny pack holsters that fanny packs were recognized as holsters....

Put another way, what of a legal AOW that doesn't look like a gun? A pager or cell phone gun carried in an OWB holster is not "concealed". But it isn't recognizable as a firearm to most anyone.

On the flip side, not that long ago, one could walk around engineering colleges and see a lot of students with holsters not much different than the flap holster. They were carrying large slide rules rather than firearms. In such a setting, I'm not sure a flap holster would be any more immediately recognized as holding a firearm than would a fanny pack.

Obviously, "....shall not be infringed" needs to be fully recognized in statute. My right to carry a firearm should not be the least bit dependent on how easily anyone else can determine whether I'm carrying that firearm. The nonsense about some inherent "evil" with carrying concealed/discreetly are nothing more than social and judicial claptrap from an era of reaching for some reason to make it hard for slaves, freed slaves, the poor, and other such "undesirable" groups to defend themselves.

Such silly rules certainly don't apply to my carrying of religious or political materials under the 1st amendment. The whole premise of the 4th and 5th amendments is that I have a right to keep personal matters private if I so choose. But, so long as bad laws remain on the books, we look for ways to obey them in the least invasive way possible while we work to repeal said bad laws.

Charles
 
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Maverick9

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Not if you are OCing, which is legal w/o a permit. The gun may also be in a secure (not locked) console or glove compartment.

"In the instance of a traffic stop, should I advise the police officer that I have a concealed handgun permit?
Virginia law does not require you to notify the officer that you have a permit. However, Section 18.2-308.01, of the Code of Virginia, requires you to be in possession of the permit whenever you are carrying a concealed handgun and to display the permit and a government-issued photo-identification upon demand by a law-enforcement officer
."
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm

So by the code, if you are OC-ing (or the firearm is not within reach in a glove box or toolbox) then you don't need to answer any questions or present any permits.

Interesting. The legislature kind of makes it hard on the LEO, since he has a decision tree to go through.

Cop: 'IF I stop someone for an expired tag, should I ask to see the permit?

Cop: 'What if they're not carrying and they just say 'unh-uh' or shake their head no? Should I get them out of the car, pat them down or write them a ticket?'

Cop: 'How do I know the ticket is warranted if they don't talk and aren't carrying?'.

Say you are not carrying and you don't present permit and the LEO writes you a ticket (you say nothing). How do you show it was an invalid ticket. (most people would say 'I'm not carrying...or am I legally required to answer you, officer?)

Basically if the officer is not willing to pat you down you never have to present your permit on demand because you COULD not be carrying.

Goofy.

IME, since your permit is linked to your Dr-License (and non-legally, I might add) they see it popup when they scan your license plate. It's in the VCIN. Again, stupid law, illegal insertion of you in a criminal database, and non-legal request (optional) by the Clerk to see your license. ("It makes it easier for us", is what the clerk says).
 
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