ALERT: MI Sheriff's training on how to arrest OCers.

[WARCHILD]

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Overall a positive presentation with some bias and bad suggestions. As PD says; cowboys/girls and making a political statement...BULL!
Also, wait for backup and the second officer should approach from "Behind as quietly as possible"!
Talk about a stupid way to escalate a stop! What would any normal person do if surprised from behind, turn around and ask for a dance! :banghead:

But I guess this is a step forward.

 

[Citizen]

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WARCHILD wrote:

wait for backup and the second officer should approach from "Behind as quietly as possible"!

Hmmmm. I guess the lesson for us is that if we see one officer approaching, check our rear.

I would caution against doing it too much after contact, though. Police are trained that a person looking around while being interviewed byhim are/might be looking for a direction to run.

 

[mikestilly]

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It wasnt positive about open carry at all really except that it is legal..

WTF

Goes against society’s culture.

Flies in the face of all good judgment.

Is against every officer’s instinct of survival.

Is contrary to every officer’s safety principle that is taught when confronted with armed offenders.

Cowboy on every slide on open carry. Give me a break. This sucks.

"Law enforcement officers can merely approach an individual on the street or in another public place, and can offer in evidence in a criminal prosecution the subjects voluntary answers to such questions.” If you dont shut your mouth can you bring charges against yourself.

There are positive things:

I DO LIKE:

Training
Open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.

Officer
Caution officers that the subject is not obliged to be cooperative.

Don’t lecture or make contact a test of wills.
Speak how you would like to be spoken to!

Many OC people believe they are making a political statement.

Don’t lecture or be judgmental.

They have a legal Right to Carry!

 

[drew68]

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Anybody know what the new law changes for 2009 are that they talked about?

 

[PDinDetroit]

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drew68 wrote:

Anybody know what the new law changes for 2009 are that they talked about?

drew68 - the only item I could find is the following: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._71_263341_7.pdf

 

[TheRabbitsHole]

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Good to see that it is semi-proactive. I see a few issues with their slides.

1. How OC is legal in areas off limits to CC for people with a CPL.
2. That if they suspect you are concealing weapons they can search you?
3. "Click to add title" <-- LOL
4. In the face of all good judgement? Hmmm... Okay..
5. Fully exposed... ??? No holster?
6. They say with CPL must disclose. Doesn't differenciate between when someone isn't concealing but has a CPL.
7. They state with the MCL disclosure "may be searched"
8. They can " can offer in evidence in a criminal prosecution the subjects voluntary answers to such questions" Does this mean they can use the 5th ammendment against you to get you to incriminate yourself with their trick questions?
9. The "suspect" is armed? I thought we werent reasonably "suspicious"?
10. "Approach from the rear as quietly as possible" ... so.. sneak up the OC guy and startle or scare him?
11. "Many OC people believe they are making a political statement" Okay.. sure but that's not the only reason, by far...


but.... other then that, at least they recognize some of the legalities.

 

[autosurgeon]

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I say keep the yapper shut other than to say (am I being detained?) (Am I free to go ...) other than that use the rule (STFU) when dealing with LEO!

 

[Evil Creamsicle]

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There may be issues, but progress is progress, and progress here is undeniable.

 

[hopnpop]

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Nothing like I'd feared, whew!! Of course it still had some little wrinkles but overall a good thing. Thanks, V.

 

[mikestilly]

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autosurgeon wrote:

I say keep the yapper shut other than to say (am I being detained?) (Am I free to go ...) other than that use the rule (STFU) when dealing with LEO!

Yes from everything I see it always comes back to WASH, RINSE, REPEAT. It always must be stressed and repeated over and over.

 

[Venator]

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Keep in mind the slide show I posted was from early in the year and I think based on my comments to Mr. King has been modified a bit. So I think but am not sure that the latest version of the slide show is a bit better balanced.

I did hear that the presenters told of an incident in a northern small town that borders the woods of an 18 year old walking into town with his 14 year old brother. The 18 year old was OCing a pistol and carrying a shotgun (Coming out of the woods from hunting.) The both go into town to get a pop and the 18 year can't carry his guns into the store (Liquor license) so he hands them to his 14 year old brother to wait on the street while he goes in. Well someone calls the police and they investigate, they know OC is legal so they just called the parents and all ends well. Cute story I thought. In Warren they may have been arrested or worse.

 

[DrTodd]

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Venator wrote:

In fact Michigan Open Carry and my name was brought up during the class. I was told that the reference to us was positive.

Venator... you are in(famous)!!:lol: I'm glad that the reference to us was seemingly positive; I think that speaks well to our demeanor when we are dealing with leos whilst out and about.

 

[DrTodd]

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Venator wrote:

Keep in mind the slide show I posted was from early in the year and I think based on my comments to Mr. King has been modified a bit. So I think but am not sure that the latest version of the slide show is a bit better balanced.

I did hear that the presenters told of an incident in a northern small town that borders the woods of an 18 year old walking into town with his 14 year old brother. The 18 year old was OCing a pistol and carrying a shotgun (Coming out of the woods from hunting.) The both go into town to get a pop and the 18 year can't carry his guns into the store (Liquor license) so he hands them to his 14 year old brother to wait on the street while he goes in. Well someone calls the police and they investigate, they know OC is legal so they just called the parents and all ends well. Cute story I thought. In Warren they may have been arrested or worse.

At least they would be featured on Warren's version of COPs...

 

[T Vance]

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Citizen wrote:

I would caution against doing it too much after contact, though. Police are trained that a person looking around while being interviewed byhim are/might be looking for a direction to run.

Not sure if this is true or not, but from what a friend of mine told me (who is going to school to be a LEO), if you have not commited ANY crime, there is no crime in running away from an LEO. Even if it is true, I still won't do it, nor suggest it.

 

[T Vance]

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ethernetweb wrote:

10. "Approach from the rear as quietly as possible" ... so.. sneak up the OC guy

You shouldn't have to worry about someone coming up behind you because you are facing another man with a gun (the 1st LEO) who can see behind you, and "handle" the person if they pose a threat to you. Just like if someone tries to sneak up behind the 1st LEO you are talking to, you could see that "threat" and "handle" it for that officer. :what:

 

[rj3663]

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I didn't like it when they snuck up behind me when I was a criminal and I really don't think I'd like it now. As far as vance's comment on watching someone sneak up behind a leo, I think I'd wait until he's been knocked to the ground before I tried to intervein. Not out of malicious intent I just don't want to get shot for tying to help him. Kind of hard for him to get a round off if he's been konked on the noggin'.

Anyway, thanks venator for bringing us all up to speed.

 

[hopnpop]

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rj3663 wrote:

As far as vance's comment on watching someone sneak up behind a leo, I think I'd wait until he's been knocked to the ground before I tried to intervein. Not out of malicious intent I just don't want to get shot for tying to help him.

I don't think it would be wise to wait for the cop to get beaned in the head. And intervention doesn't necessarily mean drawing your weapon. I think a simple "Hey, you're about to get jacked by that guy behind you" or even just motion over his shoulder and say "hey, look out..."! If face to face with an LEO, no way I'm pulling my gun. In fact, don't think there's any way I'd even reach for it. No way, no how, no holes in my shirt!!

 

[SpringerXDacp]

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Venator wrote:

Keep in mind the slide show I posted was from early in the year and I think based on my comments to Mr. King has been modified a bit. So I think but am not sure that the latest version of the slide show is a bit better balanced.

I did hear that the presenters told of an incident in a northern small town that borders the woods of an 18 year old walking into town with his 14 year old brother. The 18 year old was OCing a pistol and carrying a shotgun (Coming out of the woods from hunting.) The both go into town to get a pop and the 18 year can't carry his guns into the store (Liquor license) so he hands them to his 14 year old brother to wait on the street while he goes in. Well someone calls the police and they investigate, they know OC is legal so they just called the parents and all ends well. Cute story I thought. In Warren they may have been arrested or worse.

I remember seeing this on TV, a good story.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,274138,00.html

 

[Rob Washeleski]

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Anyone notice that even in a voluntary stop your statements are admissible in court? +1 for keeping your pork-trap shut. It can never, ever,ever, ever.....ever help you. At all.

-Rob

 

[ghostrider]

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T Vance wrote:

Citizen wrote:

I would caution against doing it too much after contact, though. Police are trained that a person looking around while being interviewed byhim are/might be looking for a direction to run.

Not sure if this is true or not, but from what a friend of mine told me (who is going to school to be a LEO), if you have not commited ANY crime, there is no crime in running away from an LEO. Even if it is true, I still won't do it, nor suggest it.

You might ask your friend if he's heard of this:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/98-1036.ZS.html

In this case, moreover, it was also Wardlow’s unprovoked flight that aroused the officers’ suspicion. Nervous, evasive behavior is another pertinent factor in determining reasonable suspicion, e.g., United States v. Brignoni-Ponce, 422 U.S. 873, 885, and headlong flight is the consummate act of evasion.

Walk, don't run.