Arts Beats and Eats

[Michigander]

Man I hope WaCo gets my CPL to me before this event takes place!

I believe the maximum time limit a county is allowed for CPL paperwork is 45 days. I don't know how to force it through, but some others here can help you. Knowing what you are doing, and telling such to those who need to hear it is often all it takes to push bureaucratic government actions along.

 

[Michigander]

Extra: The "handshake agreement" for MOC Inc to have a table within the ABE Festival Grounds, in exchange for No Open Carry and not continuing to push the issue, was again proposed by Mr Jon Witz. This table was stated to be in a "prominent location" within the ABE Festival Grounds, with a value of $2500 per day for 4 days. I conveyed that I was not able to speak for nor direct anyone else and that I would pass the message along, which I have sent to the MOC Board. My bottom dollar says the answer to that would be a resounding NO!.

While on the surface of it that is a sleazy compromise, I think it might be worthy of consideration. A few MOC reps could hand out tri folds, and meanwhile, anyone not acting in an official MOC capacity can do as they please.

 

[scot623]

Just trying to understand your logic: so once I enter a place CC, I MUST stay CC while there?
So, your opinion appears to be that if we are denied entrance that this furthers the cause to such a degree that anything else is worthy of condemnation. Hmm. Interesting.

Personally, if I knew that some people were already inside and OCing, no matter how they legally entered the event, I would probably OC through the admission area. My point is, there is a legal reason that I think it wise to have a number of people OCing inside the event.
If the only way we can OC at the ABE event is to CC in and then switch to OC, then I think that in this instance, that action is justifiable.
I don't carry my firearm to make statements, I carry it to afford my protection to myself, the ones I love, and those to whom I chose to protect.

I agree with why you carry, I carry for the many of the same reasons. The other day I met my wife for dinner, I was coming from work and had a suit on. When I entered the restaurant I had my jacket on, concealing my firearm. When I sat down I took off my jacket exposing my holstered firearm and enjoyed dinner while OC . Of course their will be times we will switch from CC to OC and back, I have no problem with that. My only issue is with using CC to get past security to then OC afterwards. If you need to CC to enter a place, what is the reason you would articulate to recommend switching to OC, seeing as how you don't carry to make statements? My whole point is if there is some BS illegal rule/ordinance denying our rights to carry, why not meet the problem head on while OC to force their hand. Each person can carry however they want, you will never hear me telling anyone what they can and can't do(when legal), I will offer an opinion you can choose to ignore, and I won't take it personally.

 

[scot623]

While on the surface of it that is a sleazy compromise, I think it might be worthy of consideration. A few MOC reps could hand out tri folds, and meanwhile, anyone not acting in an official MOC capacity can do as they please.

My main issue with this is that the MOC reps wouldn't be allowed to carry a firearm per the handshake agreement. What would the MOC reps tell people asking questions about where their firearms are at? Tell them we sold our right to carry for the cost of this table? I'm not a fan of that idea, although it isn't my call.

 

[Michigander]

My main issue with this is that the MOC reps wouldn't be allowed to carry a firearm per the handshake agreement. What would the MOC reps tell people asking questions about where their firearms are at? Tell them we sold our right to carry for the cost of this table? I'm not a fan of that idea, although it isn't my call.

Believe me, I agree with you. I left a Gibralter trade center gun show I was passing out MOC info at after I basically told a manager he was full of **** for telling us we couldn't carry. My principles aren't generally for sale either. But in this case, it's a matter of business costs, and if MOC wants to pay that price and take this stupid offer, it will have its rewards.

Looking back at how far we've come in the past 4 years, I don't really see it as an issue whether or not we pass out info at this event, so I truly don't care. I'm just pointing stuff out. :-/

 

[sprinklerguy28]

While on the surface of it that is a sleazy compromise, I think it might be worthy of consideration. A few MOC reps could hand out tri folds, and meanwhile, anyone not acting in an official MOC capacity can do as they please.

AB&E is offering this in exchange for us to leave them and Royal Oak alone on their illegal rules and possible enforcement. It would be shameful for MOC to accept this offer. We would be allowing our rights to be purchased.

 

[autosurgeon]

AB&E is offering this in exchange for us to leave them and Royal Oak alone on their illegal rules and possible enforcement. It would be shameful for MOC to accept this offer. We would be allowing our rights to be purchased.

I agree totally with your position Scott!

This is the same reason I chose not to have a table at the Van Buren County Fair!

 

[PDinDetroit]

While on the surface of it that is a sleazy compromise, I think it might be worthy of consideration. A few MOC reps could hand out tri folds, and meanwhile, anyone not acting in an official MOC capacity can do as they please.

In all honesty, I have had mixed emotions about it. The "handshake" as it were would be with the understanding that there would still be people who might Open Carry since we have no control over individuals.

On the one hand, I believe it will be an excellent opportunity to make the general public aware that MI is an Open Carry State. There are expected to be 400,000 + persons over the 4 days of the festival.

On the other hand, I feel as though I would be selling my rights down the river. I am reminded of this quote "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." In this context, I would see myself promoting Open Carry while not Open Carrying as being hypocritical as there is no barrier to me Open Carrying at this event. I believe that some will have their rights trampled and denied entrance to the Festival Grounds, being on Public Property.

Even though I have had the mixed emotions, my intellect and my heart tell me which is the best way. I believe that my actions are self-evident of this. I have learned this way of thinking from all of you here and I thank you for more than I can express.

 

[PDinDetroit]

Michigander - what happened to your Avatar? I thought that guy was great! He looks like hands out sage advise, which I think you do.

I need to find an avatar now! :banghead:

 

[PDinDetroit]

Everyone with a CPL should CC in through the entrance and perhaps have these people with a CPL CC the pistol in of those who do not have a CPL. Then, when inside discretely change over to OC. With a number of people walking throughout the event, what are they going to do: arrest people and remove them? Escort them physically from the premises for doing something that is not only "legal" but is a BASIC right? If the number of people attending is similar to what the pictures at the website show during past events, it would be nearly impossible for the city and ABE to control the situation. Although it would not effect CPL holders open carrying, it is disingenuous to claim that the whole event is a Licensed establishment yet not ban children under 18 without their parents. I would monitor that those under 18 are removed from the event. If it is deemed an entertainment facility, I would take pictures and video showing that the event is not contained within a building/ structure.

What I think is going to happen is that the commission realizes that they are wrong but go ahead and state that firearms are prohibited. People who are charged with security, though, will most likely not remove people from the premises. They will just hope that not many people with firearms show up.

When I attended my first OC Meet-Up last year, it was in front of the Warren City Hall on Van Dyke at a time where Warren LEOs were harassing people who Open Carry (hamneggs and others). I and others were CC'ing until a larger group of us was together and then we OC'ed for the rest of the time without incident (some small little fair). For me, I was nervous still about OC'ing and was embarrassed that I felt the need to conceal at first (was my turning point for me OC'ing). Now, OC or CC as I feel the need to, as I believe anyone should.

What you are advocating is legal, although I believe it will lead to confrontations that should be avoided if at all possible and may cast OC'ing in a negative light. Imagine the media reports: Open Carriers Concealed To Enter Festival Against The Rules. I would rather the media reports to be this: City and ABE Deny Rights of Persons on Public Property. This is only if it goes that far, which I am working to the best of my ability for this not to occur.

Since I have a CPL, I can OC, CC, or move between carry modes at my discretion. People who do not have a CPL will not have that luxury. In My Opinion, what the City and ABE are doing is illegal similar to what LEOs have done in the past with the harassment of people OC'ing.

 

[Michigander]

Michigander - what happened to your Avatar? I thought that guy was great! He looks like hands out sage advise, which I think you do.

Gotta pay tribute to those who I feel the need to give a salute to. Fred Trost's TV show is largely responsible for making me the person and activist that I am. Therefore I use his picture as an avatar from time to time, as a way to honor the work he did during his relatively short life time.

But I am also a big fan of well built Ford Escorts, most notably the ones we never got over here. I wanted to put the picture in my sig line, but Mike and John have that blocked, so Fred had to get rotated out for a while.

 

[PDinDetroit]

Gotta pay tribute to those who I feel the need to give a salute to. Fred Trost's TV show is largely responsible for making me the person and activist that I am. Therefore I use his picture as an avatar from time to time, as a way to honor the work he did during his relatively short life time.

But I am also a big fan of well built Ford Escorts, most notably the ones we never got over here. I wanted to put the picture in my sig line, but Mike and John have that blocked, so Fred had to get rotated out for a while.

Very cool. I finally selected one that matches how I feel right now.

BTW - did you ever get your PM inbox cleared out? I tried to send a couple things recently, but could not...

 

[Michigander]

Very cool. I finally selected one that matches how I feel right now.

BTW - did you ever get your PM inbox cleared out? I tried to send a couple things recently, but could not...

Thought I did, but I guess the new limit is even lower than I thought. I'll have to go fix that.

 

[NHCGRPR45]

first we can not give quarter to the city of royal oak, or mr. witz who without question offered a BRIBE!!!!!!!!! if you do this i.e. do what i want you to do and not contest the illegallity of my rule agaisnt and OVER you,,make you do as i see fit, without any regard, in fact a total and COMPLETE!!! disregard of law! then you can have a table to pass of information to the rifraff.:banghead: really?

REALLY?:cuss:

this mr.witz just tried to buy us off!:cuss:

i have stated my position on this!

it would be a huge mistake for MOC to take this bribe.

IMO everyone should do what he or she sees is the best way to win, but sometimes to win at any cost could backfire on us. while i don't see "baiting" as wholly wrong, for instance i have been told that saying hello, or asking how things are going to law enforcement is "baiting" while i am open carrying my weapon. i don't think thats baiting, its me being who i am. if we don't try to place ourselves in the public view as being good polite, upstanding citizens, then we may be seen as "those guy's" we need to be seen interacting with police just as any polite individual would be.

in the eye of the law my gun in its holster is no diffrent than the shirt i wear or boots i put on. however to the people who see my gun in its holster, there is a big difference, people include cops.

we have to hold ourselves to a much higher standard, we can't be seen to take bribes, to back down from the good fight. right now we as a group, have the law on our side, and the moral high ground, we must stay there.

 

[army74]

Ab&e

I agree we shouldnt sell off our rights. Mr. Witz is a snake in sheeps clothing.He has shown his true colors once again. Only if you knew him his in it to make money and thats it he doesnt like being told what he can or cant do believe me. I know from experience. The offer (BRIBE) he offerd wasnt his first his good old friend Mr. payne former mayor of Pontiac

 

[Bikenut]

My opinion.....

There should not be any tables/booths within AB&E supporting OC that isn't manned by folks OC'ing. To do so is hypocritical.

There should not be any individuals stooping to CC'ing to sneak past the checkpoints in order to OC later just to avoid the confrontation. To do so is hypocritical.

There should be a very large crowd of OC'ers show up all in one bunch at the same time at the same checkpoint.... with media tagging along... or at least with many personal camcorders and personal video/audio recorders running.

As I said in the beginning of this post... that is my opinion. And since I won't be attending AB&E I really don't have a right to say anything at all so y'all do what you wish.

 

[scot623]

Brothers robbed at Red Coat Tavern in Royal Oak

Friday, July 23, 2010

By DAVE PHILLIPS
Of The Oakland Press
http://theoaklandpress.com/articles/...c723017291.txt

Two patrons of the Red Coat Tavern in Royal Oak were robbed of cash, a Blackberry phone and keys outside of the restaurant.

It was around 12:35 a.m. Tuesday when two brothers exited the restaurant. While they were walking through the parking lot, two men stepped out from behind a utility pole, brandishing semiautomatic handguns and demanding money, Royal Oak Police Department Lt. Gordon Young said.

“One suspect yelled, ‘Give me what you got!’ and both of the (victims) handed over their wallets by dropping them to the ground,” Young said.

The suspects then patted down the victims, taking an undisclosed amount of money, keys and the Blackberry from their pockets. They then ran east through the parking lot.

Both suspects are described as black males with crew cuts, medium builds and dark complexions. One suspect is approximately 5 feet 9 inches tall. Police were not sure about the other suspect’s height.
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AB&E is safe though...right? We don't need to protect ourselves, the barriers AB&E set up are magical and keep all the bad people out of the festival, right?

 

[detroit_fan]

I agree that taking the deal would not be good for the cause. IMO our rights are non-negotiable, even if the table cost $10,000/day

 

[NHCGRPR45]

yea real safe, after i left when i was done talking to everyone after the 19th meeting there were 2 homeless guys sitting not far from the fountain, one appeared drunk, and the other was takeing a pull from a bottle. while that is benign enough, the smart criminal would now that royal oak would make for easy marks, its a short walk from detroit to royal oak. and -21 cops is like rining the dinner bell, or throwing blood in the water, or raw meat on the savannah,,,,,

 

[eastmeyers]

yea real safe, after i left when i was done talking to everyone after the 19th meeting there were 2 homeless guys sitting not far from the fountain, one appeared drunk, and the other was takeing a pull from a bottle. while that is benign enough, the smart criminal would now that royal oak would make for easy marks, its a short walk from detroit to royal oak. and -21 cops is like rining the dinner bell, or throwing blood in the water, or raw meat on the savannah,,,,,

Lol you think thats bad how many public library's do you know of in the sub-burbs that have security? And they share a parking lot with the PD, ahh, LOL! :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: