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Celebrating by firing your gun in the air, really?!?
- Thread starter nuc65
- Start date
nuc65
Activist Member
If you disagree with their findings, you are welcome to post any evidence to the contrary.... take your time. I'll wait for it...
That would be a waste of time. The show is entertainment, not science or engineering. One that pops into my head is their ".test " of thermite where they placed a huge amount of thermite on a car and found nothing happened when they lit it off. This is like dumping the powder out of a bullet, lighting it and declaring that bullets don't work because the powder burns too slowly to do anything. Interesting theory, but false premise. Most of their shows are like that, interesting theory but false premise.
eye95
Well-known member
What were they testing? Likely, some myth claimed that something spectacular would happen if a bunch of thermite was placed on a car an lit. If so, their test was the exact right test to do. If they were testing something else, can you expound on that?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.
<o>
thedevilrobyjohn
Regular Member
saw you
i saw you, made me think it was a .22 at first because they showed one many times....declared that it was a .40 pistol....they even said possibly imi(uzi-desert eagle-jherico)
what the hell was he comparing a bat hitting a ball to?
i saw you, made me think it was a .22 at first because they showed one many times....declared that it was a .40 pistol....they even said possibly imi(uzi-desert eagle-jherico)
what the hell was he comparing a bat hitting a ball to?
Last edited:
ProShooter
Regular Member
Apparently they are looking for a gun with polygonal rifling.
I was trying to give the reporter an example of something has achieves a different velocity in an alternate direction. I'm not sure that he explained it correctly.
Last edited:
A related update from VCDL.org VA-Alert:
******************************************************
2. A tragedy in Richmond - a shot in the air
******************************************************
AN AVOIDABLE TRAGEDY
A very rare and tragic event happened in Midlothian on the 4th of July. A shot fired
into the air by someone came down and hit a 7-year-old boy, Brendon Mackey, on the top of
his head, killing him. The child was walking with his father to watch a fireworks
display by a lake in the Brandermill area when his father heard a "pop" sound
and his son collapsed. Unaware that the child had been hit by a stray bullet, some good
samaritans tried unsuccessfully to administer CPR. Once the child was moved, that's when
someone observed blood on the ground where the boy's head had been laying.
The Chesterfield police are actively seeking the person who fired that shot into the air,
but so far have come up empty handed.
POLITICAL AMBULANCE CHASING
Anti-gun Senator Henry Marsh, ever the political ambulance chaser, saw an opportunity to
push his gun-hating agenda. He attended the funeral and said he would introduce a bill
in the General Assembly to make firing a shot into the air a felony, according to a
reporter who interviewed me last week.
Plenty of laws were already broken by the person firing that shot - from a county
ordinance prohibiting the discharge of a firearm in the area surrounding the lake, to
reckless endangerment. Another law wouldn't have made one lick of difference to someone
already acting in a reckless and illegal manner.
Also, that this illogical proposal is just a symptom of Marsh's hatred of guns and his
elitist contempt for citizen rights is evident by the folly of its basic premise: There
is NO direction (up, down, right, left, north, south, east or west) that is an inherently
safe direction to shoot. Whether any direction is safe for pointing or shooting a gun is
always situational. Again, you are already responsible for any harm that is created by a
bullet that you fire, regardless of the direction.
Marsh's solution to everything is more laws and more felonies. He also likes strict
liability laws, where there doesn't even need to be intent to do harm. No thanks. VCDL
will strongly oppose any such misguided effort.
A LOOK AT THE BALLISTICS AND DANGER INVOLVED IN SHOOTING BULLETS INTO THE AIR
Unlike a shotgun loaded with bird shot, firing a BULLET into the air is generally a bad
idea because of the distances that it can cover. However, the sharper the angle, the
less energy the bullet will retain upon hitting the ground. A shot straight up gives the
bullet the least amount of energy on return, BUT a heavy bullet fired straight up can
still retain enough energy to do harm to someone.
The police are saying it was a .40 caliber bullet fired from a gun with polygonal rifling
(such as a Glock). Doing a few quick calculations shows that 180 grain bullet falling at
300 feet-per-second (both maximum values for the caliber and speed falling straight down)
has only about 35 foot-pounds of energy. That is probably not enough force to penetrate
the way the bullet apparently did when it hit poor little Brendon.
Well, no sooner did I write the above paragraph than I heard on the radio that the police
are now saying the gun was pointing between 55 and 70 degrees. That would make more
sense, as at that angle it should impart much more energy than 35 foot-pounds when it
finally hits something.
(If you are interested in ballistics, including detailed information on things such as
the ballistics of firing a shot in the air, I highly recommend the book "Hatcher's
Notebook" by Julian S. Hatcher. Hatcher was paid by the military around WW I to
study all kinds of things related to firearms, especially ballistics. I dusted off my
copy to get a refresher on bullets fired upward for this article.)
ADVICE TO GUN OWNERS LIVING WITHIN 1.5 MILES OF SUNDAY PARK IN BRANDERMILL
Because of the nature of this tragedy, the police are actually canvasing neighborhoods.
If you were in the area on July 4th and saw anything suspicious, be sure to share that
information with the police so they can find the person who fired that shot.
However, there are two things to keep in mind if you are part of such a canvas:
1. If the police are asking generic questions to see if you saw anything suspicious,
that is fine and you should absolutely share anything you might think is useful
2. If the police are asking questions where they seem to be looking at YOU as a suspect
(like, "where were you at 9 PM on the night of July 4th?," "do you have a
boat?" or "are you a gun owner?"), that is very different. In that case
you should probably use your constitutional protections and advise that you are going to
exercise your Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. Be sure to have an attorney present
before answering any such question.
--
Latest coverage by the Richmond Times-Dispatch: http://tinyurl.com/kyq8q5q
Random shot that killed Chesterfield boy likely fired within 5,000 foot radius
Posted: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 12:00 am
BY MARK BOWES Richmond Times-Dispatch
Police now believe a bullet that killed a 7-year-old Chesterfield County boy was fired
randomly somewhere within a 5,000-foot radius from the spot where the child was fatally
struck while walking with his father July 4.
Ballistics and federal firearms experts consulted by Chesterfield police believe the
.40-caliber-class bullet was likely fired at a 55- to 70- degree angle and, based on that
trajectory, the round likely traveled a maximum distance of about 5,000 feet, or just
less than a mile, Chesterfield Capt. Chris Hensley said during a news briefing Monday.
Hensley said the bullet that killed Brendon Mackey came almost straight down. He was
struck in the head as he walked to The Boathouse at Sunday Park on the Swift Creek
Reservoir.
“It’s not an exact science,” Hensley said. “We’re doing the best we can with the
information we have.”
If the bullet was fired at a 21-degree angle, Hensley said, the maximum distance would
extend to 7,100 feet.
Chesterfield police, assisted by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and
Explosives, have begun canvassing neighborhoods within the maximum estimated range of the
bullet’s trajectory in an attempt to find the person responsible.
It’s a huge task.
“In law enforcement, we’re used to contained scenes where an incident occurs,” Hensley
said. With this incident, “we’re basically looking at a 2-mile diameter or circle that’s
a crime scene.”
Hensley said police began canvassing neighborhoods Friday in the Brandermill area and
covered 300 to 400 homes so far, or about 10 to 15 percent of the targeted area.
“We did get a couple of pieces of information that we’re looking into,” he said. “And we
got a lot of information (from people who said) I heard shots fired in this general area.
So then we have to go back out and try to find the area and see if we can find a shell
casing or something like that.”
In the next few weeks, police and ATF agents will fan out through the various
neighborhoods in the target area, Hensley said.
“So this is going to take time,” the captain said. “People need to know over the next
several weeks, that if they have a police officer or detective knocking on their door,
it’s going to be in relation to this case.”
Although police believe it’s more likely that the shot was fired within a 5,000-foot
radius, “we still want to continue to search within the maximum distance (of 7,100 feet)
— on the outside chance” the bullet was fired farther away, Hensley said.
“Somebody knows exactly who fired the round up in that area, and some people might think
it was out of range or not possible for a bullet to travel that far — but they will,”
Hensley said. “So we need to find out, and the public needs to help us.”
Anyone with information can reach police at (804) 748-1251, call Crime Solvers
anonymously at (804) 748-0660, visit CrimeSolvers.net or text “Watson” plus the tip to
CRIMES (247637).
******************************************************
2. A tragedy in Richmond - a shot in the air
******************************************************
AN AVOIDABLE TRAGEDY
A very rare and tragic event happened in Midlothian on the 4th of July. A shot fired
into the air by someone came down and hit a 7-year-old boy, Brendon Mackey, on the top of
his head, killing him. The child was walking with his father to watch a fireworks
display by a lake in the Brandermill area when his father heard a "pop" sound
and his son collapsed. Unaware that the child had been hit by a stray bullet, some good
samaritans tried unsuccessfully to administer CPR. Once the child was moved, that's when
someone observed blood on the ground where the boy's head had been laying.
The Chesterfield police are actively seeking the person who fired that shot into the air,
but so far have come up empty handed.
POLITICAL AMBULANCE CHASING
Anti-gun Senator Henry Marsh, ever the political ambulance chaser, saw an opportunity to
push his gun-hating agenda. He attended the funeral and said he would introduce a bill
in the General Assembly to make firing a shot into the air a felony, according to a
reporter who interviewed me last week.
Plenty of laws were already broken by the person firing that shot - from a county
ordinance prohibiting the discharge of a firearm in the area surrounding the lake, to
reckless endangerment. Another law wouldn't have made one lick of difference to someone
already acting in a reckless and illegal manner.
Also, that this illogical proposal is just a symptom of Marsh's hatred of guns and his
elitist contempt for citizen rights is evident by the folly of its basic premise: There
is NO direction (up, down, right, left, north, south, east or west) that is an inherently
safe direction to shoot. Whether any direction is safe for pointing or shooting a gun is
always situational. Again, you are already responsible for any harm that is created by a
bullet that you fire, regardless of the direction.
Marsh's solution to everything is more laws and more felonies. He also likes strict
liability laws, where there doesn't even need to be intent to do harm. No thanks. VCDL
will strongly oppose any such misguided effort.
A LOOK AT THE BALLISTICS AND DANGER INVOLVED IN SHOOTING BULLETS INTO THE AIR
Unlike a shotgun loaded with bird shot, firing a BULLET into the air is generally a bad
idea because of the distances that it can cover. However, the sharper the angle, the
less energy the bullet will retain upon hitting the ground. A shot straight up gives the
bullet the least amount of energy on return, BUT a heavy bullet fired straight up can
still retain enough energy to do harm to someone.
The police are saying it was a .40 caliber bullet fired from a gun with polygonal rifling
(such as a Glock). Doing a few quick calculations shows that 180 grain bullet falling at
300 feet-per-second (both maximum values for the caliber and speed falling straight down)
has only about 35 foot-pounds of energy. That is probably not enough force to penetrate
the way the bullet apparently did when it hit poor little Brendon.
Well, no sooner did I write the above paragraph than I heard on the radio that the police
are now saying the gun was pointing between 55 and 70 degrees. That would make more
sense, as at that angle it should impart much more energy than 35 foot-pounds when it
finally hits something.
(If you are interested in ballistics, including detailed information on things such as
the ballistics of firing a shot in the air, I highly recommend the book "Hatcher's
Notebook" by Julian S. Hatcher. Hatcher was paid by the military around WW I to
study all kinds of things related to firearms, especially ballistics. I dusted off my
copy to get a refresher on bullets fired upward for this article.)
ADVICE TO GUN OWNERS LIVING WITHIN 1.5 MILES OF SUNDAY PARK IN BRANDERMILL
Because of the nature of this tragedy, the police are actually canvasing neighborhoods.
If you were in the area on July 4th and saw anything suspicious, be sure to share that
information with the police so they can find the person who fired that shot.
However, there are two things to keep in mind if you are part of such a canvas:
1. If the police are asking generic questions to see if you saw anything suspicious,
that is fine and you should absolutely share anything you might think is useful
2. If the police are asking questions where they seem to be looking at YOU as a suspect
(like, "where were you at 9 PM on the night of July 4th?," "do you have a
boat?" or "are you a gun owner?"), that is very different. In that case
you should probably use your constitutional protections and advise that you are going to
exercise your Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. Be sure to have an attorney present
before answering any such question.
--
Latest coverage by the Richmond Times-Dispatch: http://tinyurl.com/kyq8q5q
Random shot that killed Chesterfield boy likely fired within 5,000 foot radius
Posted: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 12:00 am
BY MARK BOWES Richmond Times-Dispatch
Police now believe a bullet that killed a 7-year-old Chesterfield County boy was fired
randomly somewhere within a 5,000-foot radius from the spot where the child was fatally
struck while walking with his father July 4.
Ballistics and federal firearms experts consulted by Chesterfield police believe the
.40-caliber-class bullet was likely fired at a 55- to 70- degree angle and, based on that
trajectory, the round likely traveled a maximum distance of about 5,000 feet, or just
less than a mile, Chesterfield Capt. Chris Hensley said during a news briefing Monday.
Hensley said the bullet that killed Brendon Mackey came almost straight down. He was
struck in the head as he walked to The Boathouse at Sunday Park on the Swift Creek
Reservoir.
“It’s not an exact science,” Hensley said. “We’re doing the best we can with the
information we have.”
If the bullet was fired at a 21-degree angle, Hensley said, the maximum distance would
extend to 7,100 feet.
Chesterfield police, assisted by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and
Explosives, have begun canvassing neighborhoods within the maximum estimated range of the
bullet’s trajectory in an attempt to find the person responsible.
It’s a huge task.
“In law enforcement, we’re used to contained scenes where an incident occurs,” Hensley
said. With this incident, “we’re basically looking at a 2-mile diameter or circle that’s
a crime scene.”
Hensley said police began canvassing neighborhoods Friday in the Brandermill area and
covered 300 to 400 homes so far, or about 10 to 15 percent of the targeted area.
“We did get a couple of pieces of information that we’re looking into,” he said. “And we
got a lot of information (from people who said) I heard shots fired in this general area.
So then we have to go back out and try to find the area and see if we can find a shell
casing or something like that.”
In the next few weeks, police and ATF agents will fan out through the various
neighborhoods in the target area, Hensley said.
“So this is going to take time,” the captain said. “People need to know over the next
several weeks, that if they have a police officer or detective knocking on their door,
it’s going to be in relation to this case.”
Although police believe it’s more likely that the shot was fired within a 5,000-foot
radius, “we still want to continue to search within the maximum distance (of 7,100 feet)
— on the outside chance” the bullet was fired farther away, Hensley said.
“Somebody knows exactly who fired the round up in that area, and some people might think
it was out of range or not possible for a bullet to travel that far — but they will,”
Hensley said. “So we need to find out, and the public needs to help us.”
Anyone with information can reach police at (804) 748-1251, call Crime Solvers
anonymously at (804) 748-0660, visit CrimeSolvers.net or text “Watson” plus the tip to
CRIMES (247637).
eye95
Well-known member
The bullet came "almost straight down"???
Even if it were fired at a 55 - 70 degree angle, if the bullet was coming "almost straight down," it has lost virtually all of the forward impetus given it by the charge. It is being acted on almost exclusively by gravity and is surely traveling at close to terminal velocity, possibly slightly over due to the remnant of forward velocity indicated by "almost straight down."
Something does not make sense here.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.
<o>
Even if it were fired at a 55 - 70 degree angle, if the bullet was coming "almost straight down," it has lost virtually all of the forward impetus given it by the charge. It is being acted on almost exclusively by gravity and is surely traveling at close to terminal velocity, possibly slightly over due to the remnant of forward velocity indicated by "almost straight down."
Something does not make sense here.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.
<o>
nuc65
Activist Member
70 degrees might seem almost straight down. I need to check, but a 75 grain bullet will have around 146 ft/lbs of force from the gravity and countered only by air friction. I need to put together a spreadsheet to look at these values because I think the old WWI book is a little off. Altitude will play a small part (3 or 4 ft/lbs per 5000 ft), humidity, barometric pressure and temperature.
"http://www.frfrogspad.com/terminal.htm"
..."authorities" have stated that delivering between 35 and 270 ft/lbs of energy is "effective." That's almost a 9x discrepancy and there has never been any scientific or medical proof that KE does anything to soft targets. One of the most famous of the energy dump studies was done by DeMaio, in the late 60s.
There are a lot of unanswered questions as to the science of this, I imagine that a childs skull is 'softer' and more fragile than an adults 'fused' thick head so it might not take as large amount as being supposed to harm a youngster.
"http://www.frfrogspad.com/terminal.htm"
..."authorities" have stated that delivering between 35 and 270 ft/lbs of energy is "effective." That's almost a 9x discrepancy and there has never been any scientific or medical proof that KE does anything to soft targets. One of the most famous of the energy dump studies was done by DeMaio, in the late 60s.
There are a lot of unanswered questions as to the science of this, I imagine that a childs skull is 'softer' and more fragile than an adults 'fused' thick head so it might not take as large amount as being supposed to harm a youngster.
eye95
Well-known member
To me, if they say "almost straight down," that is 85 - 90 degrees. 70 degrees is 20 degrees off vertical, which is 22% rotation toward horizontal. That's a lot. At 70 degrees, the bullet retains enough of its horizontal component to be deadly. At 85 - 90 degrees, almost none of the impetus is in the horizontal, meaning almost all of it is lost to gravity, being replaced eventually by the force of gravity acting on a once stopped, now falling object, making it subject to terminal velocity.
I guess I am saying this: What the hell did they mean by "almost straight down"? If they meant 70 degrees, that decidedly ain't "almost straight down." If they meant 85 degrees, the bullet would be subject to terminal velocity. Something does not make sense.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.
<o>
I guess I am saying this: What the hell did they mean by "almost straight down"? If they meant 70 degrees, that decidedly ain't "almost straight down." If they meant 85 degrees, the bullet would be subject to terminal velocity. Something does not make sense.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.
<o>
Poorly chosen words again. A bullet fired at 55-70 degrees can't come straight down. It will arc and hit at an angle with greater force than one fired at a higher angle that stalls before falling.
That was my point in my first series of posts.
That was my point in my first series of posts.
MKEgal
Regular Member
It's all three, which is what makes it great. Turning kids on to STEM by showing that their powers can be used for good.nuc65 said:
I watch it with an engineer, and while he has occasional gripes about their method not encompassing all the variables he thinks it should, overall he's satisfied with the engineering. And we can both evaluate most of the science.
He'd love to figure out how to be a guest engineer for one show.
The thermite car test I remember seeing, they pretty much cut it in half.
There was molten metal & thermite dripping through the ceiling & running down the windshield.
So what else is in the .40 caliber class??Richmond Times-Dispatch said:
TFred
Regular Member
Any bullet that is fired at any elevation above 0 degrees horizontal will "stall" before falling. That is, it will reach a high point along the trajectory, stop climbing, and then begin to fall down again.
Also, don't forget that air resistance is slowing the bullet in the horizontal plane as well as supplying the terminal velocity restriction in the downward component of the vertical plane. That means that a bullet fired at an angle other than 90 degrees straight up will not fly in a perfect parabolic arch, it will be lopsided, with the terminal side steeper than the initial side, because the horizontal velocity is falling. If it were fired in a vacuum, then it would be a perfect parabola.
TFred
A stall is a dead stop TFred. Velocity =0 before it goes into a freefall.
There are exceptions though. I have to leave now to go to Williamsburg to get a piece for my Oakleys I broke when I launched my ramrod the other week.
It has not come down yet because I shot to place it in a careful orbit designed to decay in late November.
Since it is not losing momentum, if all goes as planned, it will arc down and hopefully skewer dog hunters on Route 49 shortly before they release the dogs.
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TFred
Regular Member
Ah, so you mean zero movement in both vertical and horizontal direction. If you fire at a non-90 degree angle, it will stall (stop) in the vertical direction, but not the horizontal, unless you are so high above ground level that the air resistance does eventually stop the horizontal movement altogether. Weeds now.
TFred
Ah, so you mean zero movement in both vertical and horizontal direction. If you fire at a non-90 degree angle, it will stall (stop) in the vertical direction, but not the horizontal, unless you are so high above ground level that the air resistance does eventually stop the horizontal movement altogether. Weeds now.
TFred
You posted before I finished. The orbiting ramrod should explain it all:uhoh:
Presuming a consistant elevation, a round/projectile dropped from the same height will strike the ground at the same instant as one fired parallel to the ground.
Also one dropped from the same altitude as the one fired 90 degrees straight up reaches the apex of its flight will strike the ground at the same time .
Also one dropped from the same altitude as the one fired 90 degrees straight up reaches the apex of its flight will strike the ground at the same time .
you can't get what you need at the Oakley store at Stoney Point, or is Williamsburg a bigger and better store ?
There are Oakley stores and Oakley Vault Outlet stores - that and Peter is required by his keeper to frequent our colonial capital on a regular basis.
That and maybe he just wants to "look" at the newest camera gadgets near there
TFred
Regular Member
I believe it's in the basement of the Fredericksburg Cemetery visitor center, there's a part of a tree or fence rail or something... with a ramrod stuck in it. Some poor over-stressed Civil War soldier forgot to remove it prior to firing his rifle!
TFred
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