Confrontation With a Dog

[malignity]

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MissRoadWarrior wrote:

Dogs are not considered livestock in Michigan, nor are they considered “fur-bearing” animals. The Michigan Court of Appeals has ruled on this, so it’s case law. See People of the State of Michigan v Jody Scott Bugaiski.

I’m not a lawyer, but I’ve researched this extensively, spoken to attorneys, animal control officers and LEOs as I was continuously having a problem with a neighbor’s German Shepherd every time I walked my dog on the public road.

You cannot lawfully shoot a dog that is attacking your dog. You can lawfully shoot a dog that is attacking you. Make sure you are not on the dog’s owner’s property when it attacks, or else you’ll be in deep doo-doo if you shoot it. Don’t wait until it bites you, but don’t shoot it only because it’s growling at you.

Whoops! Sorry for the misinformation. I'm a member of MGO, and frequent the Legal Beagle, and I thought that's where I read it. Turns out I read it here, and apparently not thoroughly enough. I think I may zip over there though and see what Jim Simmons has to say about it though, while we're at it! That way we can have the 'official' word from a lawyer

 

[MissRoadWarrior]

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Google ‘People of the State of Michigan v Jody Scott Bugaisk' and read what three lawyers (appellate court judges, actually) had to say.

Synopsis:

Guy shot his neighbor’s dog.

The trial court dismissed the charges agreeing with the defendant’s claim that he was protecting his “fur-bearing livestock” (his dogs).

The prosecutor appealed.

The Court of Appeals disagreed with the lower court ruling and mandated that the charges be reinstated and the defendant retried.

I can’t find the cite now, but Mr. Bugaisk was retried and found guilty.

 

[ghostrider]

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Michigan has a leash law. I now that that can be unsettling to some, but this is a good reason why we have a leash law. If those dogs are running around loose of the leash, then the authorities should be called. I love dogs, but the fact is that they are still animals who are primarily driven by instinct, and if the owner cannot maintain control of them, then they need to be leashed. I realize that there are plenty of people whose dogs are no problem off the leash, but these don't seem to be of that sort.

Look up Harold Fish, AZ, and see how good of an idea it is to use a gun against dogs.

Lets see:
You shoot dog in self defense (because this time it really is attacking you), and the owner can either sue you, or (as in the case of Mr. Fish) attack you and you then find yourself charged with manslaughter. “And if the defendant found these dogs so dangerous on previous walks, why did he not call the authorities to enforce the Michigan leash law instead of using his firearm, and therefore taking the law into his own hands your honor?”

This is a subject that you should not (nor do you) need to deal with. There are laws in place for this sort of thing. If you choose to disregard that law, and deal with it yourself, it could be bad juju.

 

[autosurgeon]

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Basicly if the three SSS cannot be invoked then don't shoot the dog!

Shoot, Shovel, and Shutup!!!

On a front lawn not likely ... running deer... ... Your dog is missing:uhoh: That is really a shame... If I see it I'll let ya know!!

 

[ramblinfeaver]

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IMO, i wouldbuy Pepper Spray and carry that while walking your dog. There are alot of good reasons to carry pepper spray, and this is one of them, since you can't use deadly force to protect your dog.

 

[malignity]

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If 4+ shots from a .40 caliber glock isn't going to stop a pitbull, pepper spray sure as hell isn't. There's been plenty of cases where it's taken at LEAST that many shots to kill an attacking dog.

 

[booyah]

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ghostrider wrote:

Michigan has a leash law. I now that that can be unsettling to some, but this is a good reason why we have a leash law. If those dogs are running around loose of the leash, then the authorities should be called. I love dogs, but the fact is that they are still animals who are primarily driven by instinct, and if the owner cannot maintain control of them, then they need to be leashed. I realize that there are plenty of people whose dogs are no problem off the leash, but these don't seem to be of that sort.

Look up Harold Fish, AZ, and see how good of an idea it is to use a gun against dogs.

Lets see:
You shoot dog in self defense (because this time it really is attacking you), and the owner can either sue you, or (as in the case of Mr. Fish) attack you and you then find yourself charged with manslaughter. “And if the defendant found these dogs so dangerous on previous walks, why did he not call the authorities to enforce the Michigan leash law instead of using his firearm, and therefore taking the law into his own hands your honor?”

This is a subject that you should not (nor do you) need to deal with. There are laws in place for this sort of thing. If you choose to disregard that law, and deal with it yourself, it could be bad juju.

Ghostrider, you have a very good point. I am going to make it a point to report any unleashed/aggressive dogs on my walks from this point on. If nothing else it establishes a history that I have had issues with these animals in the area and attempted to follow the correct channels if things ever escalate in the future.

 

[booyah]

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ramblinfeaver wrote:

IMO, i wouldbuy Pepper Spray and carry that while walking your dog. There are alot of good reasons to carry pepper spray, and this is one of them, since you can't use deadly force to protect your dog.

I guess to me part of the point is that I didnt feel the need to defend my dog so much as the need to defend myself. I was the one in front, was the one the dogs were coming at, and I was the one they needed to deal with.

I was already involved in the fight before they even got to my dog, so I guess in my book the defense part would have been of myself, NOT my dog.

 

[Venator]

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I hate it when I'm wrong. Or at least partially wrong. Case where you can shoot a dog and a case where you can't.

287.279 Killing of dog pursuing, worrying, or wounding livestock or poultry, or attacking person; damages for trespass; effect of license tag.



Sec. 19.

Any person including a law enforcement officer may kill any dog which he sees in the act of pursuing, worrying, or wounding any livestock or poultry or attacking persons, and there shall be no liability on such person in damages or otherwise, for such killing. Any dog that enters any field or enclosure which is owned by or leased by a person producing livestock or poultry, outside of a city, unaccompanied by his owner or his owner's agent, shall constitute a trespass, and the owner shall be liable in damages. Except as provided in this section, it shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to kill or injure or attempt to kill or injure any dog which bears a license tag for the current year.

 

[ghostrider]

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Venator wrote:

I hate it when I'm wrong. Or at least partially wrong. Case where you can shoot a dog and a case where you can't.

287.279 Killing of dog pursuing, worrying, or wounding livestock or poultry, or attacking person; damages for trespass; effect of license tag.



Sec. 19.

Any person including a law enforcement officer may kill any dog which he sees in the act of pursuing, worrying, or wounding any livestock or poultry or attacking persons, and there shall be no liability on such person in damages or otherwise, for such killing. Any dog that enters any field or enclosure which is owned by or leased by a person producing livestock or poultry, outside of a city, unaccompanied by his owner or his owner's agent, shall constitute a trespass, and the owner shall be liable in damages. Except as provided in this section, it shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to kill or injure or attempt to kill or injure any dog which bears a license tag for the current year.

There was a thread (I think last year, but maybe this year) started on MGO about this very topic, referencing this very law.

I believe it was fbuckner.

 

[ghostrider]

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booyah wrote:

Ghostrider, you have a very good point. I am going to make it a point to report any unleashed/aggressive dogs on my walks from this point on. If nothing else it establishes a history that I have had issues with these animals in the area and attempted to follow the correct channels if things ever escalate in the future.

Yes.

I don't like the idea of being the person to call the cops every time someone does something that I don't like (nor do you want to be the person whom the dispatchers know by name because your always calling), but this is not the same as calling 911 for a MWAG on an OC'er. They have passed law for this, and going through those proper channels (keeping records of it of course) can establish an effort on your part to resolve the issue before it gets out of hand.

There used to be a couple a few houses down from me who had two HUGE German Rottweilers that the let run in a fenced-in yard. For years I'd watched the man walk the dogs, talked to him on a very few occasions, and had observed that he was not only very carring of his dogs, but also trained them very well.

On one occasion I was walking by, and the next door neighbor told me that I shouldn't go by that house because the gate for the dogs was unlacthed, and the dogs were in the yard. I told the neighbor that there should be no worry since the dogs were so well trained that the unlatched gate wouldn't matter because the dogs wouldn't leave the yard without their owner. I was right. That dog didn't even try to push the gate. He just ran up to the fence, and stood his ground.

 

[malignity]

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I just started this topic yesterday on MGO

According to Jim Simmons, you can shoot a dog, tagged or not, if it's hurting your livestock or yourself.

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=58429

For those MGO members out there.

 

[taxwhat]

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Did I not say that ?

 

[astrogiblet]

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malignity wrote:

According to Jim Simmons, you can shoot a dog, tagged or not, if it's hurting your livestock or yourself.

I think thats a pretty blatant misquote of what Jim said.. lets quote his post directly:

"As with much of the law pertaining to defense, and to firearms discharge, there's no bright line rule, no real place I can say "you definitely can shoot, with absolute certainty you won't be charged," or "you definitely cannot shoot, and will definitely go to jail if you do." The question is whether you honestly and reasonably felt that you were in imminent danger, and whether it was necessary to shoot to protect yourself"

I don't see him directly say its ok to shoot a dog in defense of you or your livestock.

 

[Citizen]

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I would still get the pepper spray, if legal.

If it works in a dogattack, great.Youget to miss out on all the policeinvestigation andsuch legal jeopardy as may be. If the pepper spray does not work, you've still got the gun, assuming it is not illegalto shoot.

Heck, are cattle-prods legal? Bet that makes a few dogs think twice.

 

[malignity]

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astrogiblet wrote:

malignity wrote:

According to Jim Simmons, you can shoot a dog, tagged or not, if it's hurting your livestock or yourself.

I think thats a pretty blatant misquote of what Jim said.. lets quote his post directly:

"As with much of the law pertaining to defense, and to firearms discharge, there's no bright line rule, no real place I can say "you definitely can shoot, with absolute certainty you won't be charged," or "you definitely cannot shoot, and will definitely go to jail if you do." The question is whether you honestly and reasonably felt that you were in imminent danger, and whether it was necessary to shoot to protect yourself"

I don't see him directly say its ok to shoot a dog in defense of you or your livestock.

I was referring to his quote:

"If a dog is attacking a person or livestock, the law authorizes the killing of that dog, tagged or otherwise. If the dog is tagged, then it's otherwise off-limits to civilians. LEOS can kill a dog molesting wildlife, 287.278."




This is not a 'blatant misquote'. To me, this means you're able to shoot it in defense of both yourself and your livestock, but cannot shoot it for any other reason. Am I wrong here? If so, correct me please.

 

[smellslikemichigan]

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this topic has been discussed at length, here:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=27000&forum_id=30&highlight=livestock

and i initially agreed with the thought that you could shoot an attacking dog to defend your own dog because your dog was your own livestock. however, i did find a legal precedent had been set here in michigan already:

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...gan&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

in 1997 the michigan court of appeals did not agree that your personal dog was livestock and they overturned st clair county circuit courts previous not guilty ruling. the defendant ended up paying a fine, restitution, court costs and having to give up his firearms for shooting his neighbors dog in defense of his own. so, bottom line, if you shoot a dog, it better be attacking you.

 

[conservative85]

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In a court of law the owner of the loose dog would have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that his dogs were after the victims dog. Not possible!, According to the law (the 1st part, Any person including a law enforcement officer may kill any dog which he sees in the act of pursuing, worrying, or wounding any livestock or poultry or attacking persons, and there shall be no liability on such person in damages or otherwise, for such killing) he was in his rights to shoot, Dog law aside the Mi. Constitution, allows you to defend your self. The Licensed dog section (Except as provided in this section, it shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to kill or injure or attempt to kill or injure any dog which bears a license tag for the current year) of the law as I read it means if a loose dog comes on your property but is not causing harm or damage you may not shoot it. The exception to this section means the first part of the law.

 

[taxwhat]

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Please allow me to through a wrench in to soup . What is a service animal ? What if one has already had a bad dog bite or attack ? What if one is handicapped ?

 

[hopnpop]

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Michigander wrote:

A larger handgun can make for an excellent pistol whipping device. Unfortunately your little Taurus is a little lacking in size.

I don't think you should allow an unknown, seemingly aggressive dog to get close enough to you to pistol whip. I'm a dog lover, personally, and would HATE to put down someone's dog, but if it approaches me in an attacking manner I'd probably make the unfortunate decision to stop it with extreme prejudice.