Let us help you. Do you know which Wal-Mart? Which town? What year?
I've read and heard that Obama supports the Second Amendment, too.
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Do you think open carrying makes you more or less of a target?
- Thread starter xtensity
- Start date
Let us help you. Do you know which Wal-Mart? Which town? What year?
I've read and heard that Obama supports the Second Amendment, too.
snubbyfan
New member
Actually, the Magnun's my wife's gun. I've got my eye out for a S&W K or L frame snubby. Maybe a 2.5" S&W 7 shot model 386 Nightguard .357 Magnum.
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FreeInAZ
Regular Member
@ UATKP
I tried to find anything on a armed LAC (Law Abiding Citizen) being robbed/shot at Wal-Mart. Could not find one report, but who knows? On the other hand there are plenty of videos of unarmed people being robbed or shot at Wal-Mart. Here are just a few:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSfiSa1qF0o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=ep7ZBiF2FNM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjpVbvye85c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmE4cJ6EpNY&feature=related
I tried to find anything on a armed LAC (Law Abiding Citizen) being robbed/shot at Wal-Mart. Could not find one report, but who knows? On the other hand there are plenty of videos of unarmed people being robbed or shot at Wal-Mart. Here are just a few:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSfiSa1qF0o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=ep7ZBiF2FNM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjpVbvye85c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmE4cJ6EpNY&feature=related
UATKP
New member
Seems like very few posters here know how to read out of a post, but many read into a post. I never said anything about an armed LAC getting robbed or shot at Walmart. I referred to people getting mugged in Walmart parking lots.
And as far as "citing" in the forum rules:
(5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.
What did I write in my OP that referred to a "rule of law"?
I'll not be posting anymore on this forum, because it is evident that very few opinions can be posted here without one being verbally accosted for having one.
Whether filling in the blank with "robbed", "shot", or "mugged", you did make reference to that happening routinely in Wal-Mart parking lots and that you did not wish to be relieved of your gun by OCing it. The strong implication is that an OCer would put himself at considerable risk by putting those elements in such a place. When asked to support your contention, you bob and weave, and quote a rule to avoid complying with a request for such incidents happening where OC was a contributing factor.
Let me explain in a concise manner how rules and policy are utilized. The Forum Rules are constant and uniform - they are minimum standards, minimum requirements. They are not all inclusive, nor are there restrictions on interpretation or adaptation. One such adaptation has been to call for/request support of too general or false assertions that may not be a matter of law. That is where policy comes into the picture.
Can anyone be expected to know/anticipate all policy interpretations? Of course not; however, we are pretty good at making them known when the situation demands it. That is were we are. You have spoken negatively without offering any support and refuse to give credence to reasonable requests for the basis of your position - further that we may "believe what we want" and that "you do not care".
The user/members here understand the application of rules and policy as being much the same, especially when such has been pointed out and then confirmed by a member of the administration. What is most unfortunate is that you do not seem to have gotten the message - so let me make it official.
Your position on OC is not consistent with the facts nor consistent with historical data. You may choose to carry or not as that decision belongs solely to you and for whatever reason you subscribe. What you may not do is a demand a free pass when spreading misleading information regarding OC. Your story is contrary to what a majority (all?) of OCers here have experienced. Thus it has been found to be wanting and you were expected to explain. You have not and that reflects on you.
I'd rather see you stay and absorb more of our philosophy than to leave in a huff. I do see that you continue to monitor this thread - so perhaps the former will happen.
Big Gay Al
Michigan Moderator
I've OCed in Meijer, Wal-Mart, K-Mart, and many other store and shopping mall parking lots , and no one has ever bothered to try to mug me. If they had, most likely there would have been an article in the news about someone getting shot. For me, the major advantage I've found to OCing is I am a lot more alert to my surroundings than I was, even when I carried concealed. This higher level or alert has gone a long way toward keeping me out of trouble and dangerous situations.
Bad guys don't like potential victims who are alert. They want you walking around with your eyes down, refusing to meet anyone's look. When you pay attention and stare back at them, that's usually a warning sign for them that you are not an easy target.
At least, that's what I've noticed.
Bad guys don't like potential victims who are alert. They want you walking around with your eyes down, refusing to meet anyone's look. When you pay attention and stare back at them, that's usually a warning sign for them that you are not an easy target.
At least, that's what I've noticed.
Phoenix David
Regular Member
Sounds like you had practiced but never trained with regard to proper drawing from concealment.
guitar_rockin
New member
I didn't read through all 8 pages, so this perspective might have been said already. To me when you CC, you look just like everyone else, so to the bad guy you might look like as easy target as any. Say they don't have a gun even, just a knife, they pull the knife on you and demand your money, they do not know you have a weapon at this point. Now your put into a situation where your life may be in danger because you have BG threating you with a deadly weapon, and you may be forced to use deadly force in response. If you have been openly carrying, he would have moved on to an eaiser target, you know the old bringing a knife to a gun fight.
MikeTheGreek
Regular Member
I have seen, and read interviews with criminals who have said, if they were going to try to rob someone/a business, and they saw someone openly carrying a firearm, they would turn around and leave, and find somewhere else to go.
Most criminals use intimidation to get what they want, they think they're going to scare someone, just an innocent ordinary citizen that has no way of defending themselves, into giving them their money. Well, when they see a firearm on the side of that person, they know that person won't be intimidated, and that person is more than willing to protect themselves and the ones around them with lethal force.
I JUST started OC'ing, but I would give ANYONE $100 cash if they could draw their forearm from concealed and fire into a target faster than I could with my CZ that I open carry.
OC deters crime and offers a much faster draw & response, which gives me a better chance of saving my life/the ones around me.
& If it DOES make me a target, I'd much rather be a target to a criminal, instead of having a nice lady standing 10 feet away with her kids be the target.
Most criminals use intimidation to get what they want, they think they're going to scare someone, just an innocent ordinary citizen that has no way of defending themselves, into giving them their money. Well, when they see a firearm on the side of that person, they know that person won't be intimidated, and that person is more than willing to protect themselves and the ones around them with lethal force.
I JUST started OC'ing, but I would give ANYONE $100 cash if they could draw their forearm from concealed and fire into a target faster than I could with my CZ that I open carry.
OC deters crime and offers a much faster draw & response, which gives me a better chance of saving my life/the ones around me.
& If it DOES make me a target, I'd much rather be a target to a criminal, instead of having a nice lady standing 10 feet away with her kids be the target.
Big Gay Al
Michigan Moderator
I don't recommend making a bet like that. I know people who are lightning fast on the draw from concealment. And they're probably older than you too.
Do not underestimate the ability of those who conceal carry. Many of them practice daily with their weapon. And many are very good at protecting themselves. Just because some of us choose to use OC, does not mean that CC is not a viable choice.
MikeTheGreek
Regular Member
I understand that. I'm sure someone would take my $100, I just think it would be interesting to see someone draw that quickly from concealment.
I'm not saying CC isn't a viable choice, I think everyone should carry a gun, and should be able to carry whichever way they choose.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
GS the guy in the second video is slowwwww. First one was not bad but the moment he went for his gun the bad guy already shot him. Remember bad guys usually have their gun drawn already. I participated in fast draw, I am no speed demon, but I can draw and hit my target in less than a half a second, with custom 51 navy. I was faster when I was younger. Should the CC speed demons think they are fast go to a match and check out children who can draw and fire in a split second. If you(general you) are going to learn to conceal, learn hand to hand, and how to think defensively as far as cover. Remember a concealed carrier is assumed to be unarmed and a likely target, unless the person intentionally prints. And then why not just open carry.
When I carried concealed and got paid for it, I trained shooting from concealed. The guys in duty belts on the same line almost always beat me. There are a lot of if's to concealed carry.
If the BG does not already have a gun in his hands.
If he does not know how to handle a firearm.
If the gun does not get snagged on clothing.
If a person he/she is a speed demon and has not already shot her/himself.
If he/she has not already messed his drawers.
If his/she gun has printed and the bad guy moved on to riper, safer target.
Every cop knows you are at a disadvantage concealed, that is why so many depts have changed their rules on off duty carry.
Always when both have same ability the LAC is at a disadvantage, even more when concealed.
MikeTheGreek
Regular Member
First Video- Insanely fast...wtf, AND he cocks the gun before he shoots.
Second Video- LOL, Pay attention to right when he lifts his shirt, the video shifts and skips slightly, he edited it to try and make himself look fast, even though he still looks slow and sloppy.
Third Video- Bob Munden is a god. I don't think he's human.
The videos were just there for display/consideration. Notice that I made no statement regarding speed or ability.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
[video=youtube;Z9AJzv8gb2A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9AJzv8gb2A&feature=related[/video]
1245A Defender
Regular Member
Well,,, Wowwie!!!
By the way,,, the guy in the 1st vid,,, is VERY fast... And!
He is carrying,,, Isreali style,,, condition 3,,, empty chamber...
we dont need to carry that way... I dont ever wish to need TWO hands to make my gun ready to shoot!
After he draws the gun,,, he racks it, with both hands,, then shoots.
And another thing,,, If a BG has his gun on you,,, you cant outdraw him... he already did!
You need to rely on some misdirection,,,
as you indicate your wallet is in your back pocket and turn to show him that you will pull it out,
as you turn to reach it, also you lower your draw hand to pull and shoot behind you between your elbow and side, into his belly button!
works best with cross draw!!!
Ill look for tom cruise shooting from CC in a movie...
Oh... is this the one??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmKR6evZRQQ
By the way,,, the guy in the 1st vid,,, is VERY fast... And!
He is carrying,,, Isreali style,,, condition 3,,, empty chamber...
we dont need to carry that way... I dont ever wish to need TWO hands to make my gun ready to shoot!
After he draws the gun,,, he racks it, with both hands,, then shoots.
And another thing,,, If a BG has his gun on you,,, you cant outdraw him... he already did!
You need to rely on some misdirection,,,
as you indicate your wallet is in your back pocket and turn to show him that you will pull it out,
as you turn to reach it, also you lower your draw hand to pull and shoot behind you between your elbow and side, into his belly button!
works best with cross draw!!!
Ill look for tom cruise shooting from CC in a movie...
Oh... is this the one??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmKR6evZRQQ
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WalkingWolf
Regular Member
The first guy is quick, he is not fast, sorry. Nothing wrong with quick, but from concealed it can be fatal. Fast is barely seeing the movements, think faster than the eye can see. The quickest I have seen from a non pro is a girl using a flash bang holster. I would have had two shots into the guy in the first video before he got clear of his shirt. I suggest men get implants wear a bra, and use a flash bang concealed, or just OC.
He is also not reacting, which means his draw time starts at the moment his hands drop, which is not what happens. Braking is the most practiced reaction known to us, IMO. Reaction time in braking can be anywhere from .15 to several seconds. A timing buzzer should have been used. I timed him just when his arms started to drop and he was slightly under one second, which adding reaction time at the best would put him slightly over, but plenty of time for the bad guy to aerate him.
I can draw with a SA revolver in under a half second, but I would still lose, because the bad guy probably already has a bead on me. My best plan is to seek cover, if it is available and not close. A moving target is harder to hit than a stationary one. Or engaging the BG in hand to hand to get his gun, or get the advantage to use yours. Or OC and the BG will pick another safer target.
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I understand what you are saying, but that doesn't take into account one very important factor. The BG will not be reacting as soon as you move. There will be a time delay while the information is received, processed and transmitted. Even w/o any addition hiccup/hesitation on his part that can make a big difference.
At contact range, we used to demonstrate the axiom that the first person to move wins, with gun take away techniques. Other factors can be introduced i.e. moving laterally, distraction as throwing your hat to the side etc.
What I am saying is that it is not a simple comparison of times and given the potential, action may well be better than inaction.
If it is a fair fight, you're doing something wrong. BTW - I cheat.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
I understand what you are saying, but that doesn't take into account one very important factor. The BG will not be reacting as soon as you move. There will be a time delay while the information is received, processed and transmitted. Even w/o any addition hiccup/hesitation on his part that can make a big difference.
At contact range, we used to demonstrate the axiom that the first person to move wins, with gun take away techniques. Other factors can be introduced i.e. moving laterally, distraction as throwing your hat to the side etc.
What I am saying is that it is not a simple comparison of times and given the potential, action may well be better than inaction.
If it is a fair fight, you're doing something wrong. BTW - I cheat.
I do too, it is one of the reasons I carry a cane, and a knife. If my hairs are already standing up, and I am not legal to draw, I already have the folder in my hand. The best medicine is not to be in a situation to begin with, and OC helps with that. I have taught my wife to walk with a small canister of pepper spray in her hand when she is not with me.