Forced To Disarm And The Outcome

[gsx1138]

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Thank you for your insight.

 

[911Boss]

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Maybe I should also mention that officers in the area might just be a little more cautious given the incidents since October.

I know for a fact the our Sheriff has issued a reminder about standing policies and sound safety practices.

Why would anyone feel the need to have gun at hand if there are multiple cops outside your house ? (who you called and asked to come help, by the way...). By all means hang on to it til they arrive, but once they do you can't both be in charge of the scene.

It sounds like some of you are extremely suspicious or have no faith in the police at all. If that is the case, than why would you even call them?

Don't bother retelling all the stories about "bad" cops and how "they" abuse their authority, etc. If that is your concern and belief, why would call in the first place? Doesn't make sense to me. Kinda reminds of the story about ordering a pizza and then yelling at the delivery guy for trespassing.

 

[N6ATF]

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There are far better ways to handle law-abiding gun owners than giving them orders as if they were criminals.

"Ok, I've notified the officers you are armed. Is it holstered or slung? Ok, good. Take some deep breaths, and take some time to calm your nerves. You're probably having an adrenalin dump right now, but nobody's going to be breaking in with multiple officers standing outside right now. When you're ready, please bring out the surveillance tape, if you have one, and a drink to keep hydrated while giving your statement; dry mouth is another effect of the adrenalin."

That way the RP is another step away from being able to draw, and it'll be more obvious when the gun is a threat and when it isn't.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

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Good post Boss911.

I would personally like to say though calling a police in many cases have become standard procedure too. Imagagine , God forbid, we did have use lethal force, anda prosecutorpoints out to a court room "Why didn't you call 911?" When there was adequate time to do so.

Also I would call the police so even if nothing came of it for a report to be filed and to help the LEO make a pattern or catch someone who might be targeting my neighborhood. Or if indeed I did apprehend a Bad Guy I am pretty much obligated to call the police.

In all these cases it wouldn't be a case of why would I need a gun if I invited the police, it is simply I never want to be unarmed.

Now in almost a humorous note I yelled at a 911 operator once, I feel kinda bad about it now she was only trying to do her job, I also was in shock and lots of pain. I was severerly burned around 30%, drove home got into the shower, when it occured to me I should probably call for an ambulance, after telling the operator what happened and then informing her I was going to back into the shower she asked if I could take the phone with me (out of concern for me, which I was too out of it to discern at the time) I yelled "Do you take electrical devices with you in the shower!!" and hung up.

Another funny 911 story my freinds mother used to clean the offices for 911 here in Bellingham. While cleaning one office a book shelf fell over and pinned her to the ground or wall I can't remember which. She called 911 and was trying to tell them this which they didn't believe her and thought it was a prank. Finally after a couple of calls since she could see them through the glass door she told the operator what he was wearing and to turn around. He was profusely apologetic, but she understood how they would think this would be a prank.

 

[erps]

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There are far better ways to handle law-abiding gun owners than giving them orders as if they were criminals.

Definitely works better for all concerned to ask. I suspect it's pretty universal to dislike being told to do stuff.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

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erps wrote:

There are far better ways to handle law-abiding gun owners than giving them orders as if they were criminals.

Definitely works better for all concerned to ask. I suspect it's pretty universal to dislike being told to do stuff.

I suspect the same.

 

[Johnny Law]

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Thanks much for the excellent post 911Boss.It's nice to have another "voice of truth" in this storming sea of opinion, personal interpretations, and armchair quarterbacking (or commando if you prefer). Youmanaged to explain many issues in detail, although many here do not want to hear it, as it does not coincide with their opinion of "how it should be in a perfect world".

All should be aware that with the recent Officer shootings, Officer safety concerns will be even moreprevalent and visible.

 

[911Boss]

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N6ATF wrote:

There are far better ways to handle law-abiding gun owners than giving them orders as if they were criminals.

"Ok, I've notified the officers you are armed. Is it holstered or slung? Ok, good. Take some deep breaths, and take some time to calm your nerves. You're probably having an adrenalin dump right now, but nobody's going to be breaking in with multiple officers standing outside right now. When you're ready, please bring out the surveillance tape, if you have one, and a drink to keep hydrated while giving your statement; dry mouth is another effect of the adrenalin."

That way the RP is another step away from being able to draw, and it'll be more obvious when the gun is a threat and when it isn't.

Have you heard the call? I haven't so I don't know what was or wasn't said.

Actually what you wrote is pretty close to what would normally be said, if you add "please put the gun away" and subtract the physiology lesson. We don't have time for that and it would just create more problems with the caller trying to figure out what the hell we were talking about.

We would NEVER ask them to bring anything out with them, in fact just the opposite. There have been too many people shot (good and bad) because something in their hand was mistaken for a weapon.

"Ok, when the officers arrive, I am going to need you to put the gun away. We don't want any confusion. Don't have anything in your hands when you come outside, just hold your hands out to the side where the officers can see them, you don't have to put them up. Just set the phone down but don't hang it up. Do you understand? Ok, please go out now, they are waiting for you. "

We don't "order" we ask, direct, confirm, etc.

 

[Johnny Law]

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Doing what Dispatch asks is by far the lesser of the two evils. Failing to comply with them will usually result in being proned out, disarmed, and cuffedat gunpoint by the Officers arriving onscene. It will not be a request at that point.

Amlevin summed it up pretty good in another thread......................


amlevin wrote:

Johnny Law-- You can warn people all you want but some just have to piss on the electric fence anyway:what::what:

 

[911Boss]

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sudden valley gunner wrote:

Good post Boss911.

I would personally like to say though calling a police in many cases have become standard procedure too. Imagagine , God forbid, we did have use lethal force, anda prosecutorpoints out to a court room "Why didn't you call 911?" When there was adequate time to do so.

Also I would call the police so even if nothing came of it for a report to be filed and to help the LEO make a pattern or catch someone who might be targeting my neighborhood. Or if indeed I did apprehend a Bad Guy I am pretty much obligated to call the police.

In all these cases it wouldn't be a case of why would I need a gun if I invited the police, it is simply I never want to be unarmed.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely would call the cops and think anyone should, but if I call them I am going to defer to their expertise when they show up and let them do what they do.

Being antagonistic and uncooperative is only going to make a bad situation worse. Certainly keep your rights in mind, don't make statements without talking to a lawyer when appropriate, but I think it is better to cooperate as much as possible.

I prefer to not be unarmed as well, but I am ok without my gun while standing next to a few cops when they have the situation under control.

 

[Jeff Hayes]

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I once had a 911 person ask me to disarm and walk 400+- feet to the road to meetan officer, I declined because there were 3 guys just outside of my apt door threatening to kill me. 911 reiterated leave the gun in the apt and walk down to meet the officer. Long story short the officer finally came to the apt all three were arrested on outstanding feloney warrents. I vacated the apt and as I walked by the 3 BGs handcuffed and sitting on the curb one of the officers pointed out my 1911 to them and told them they were lucky they did not breach my door. Fall 1982 Ventura Ca. Most of the time 911 does a great job but every once in a while you just got to think for your self. BTW I got to pay for the damages to the door.

 

[FMCDH]

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Orphan wrote:

I once had a 911 person ask me to disarm and walk 400+- feet to the road to meetan officer, I declined because there were 3 guys just outside of my apt door threatening to kill me. 911 reiterated leave the gun in the apt and walk down to meet the officer. Long story short the officer finally came to the apt all three were arrested on outstanding feloney warrents. I vacated the apt and as I walked by the 3 BGs handcuffed and sitting on the curb one of the officers pointed out my 1911 to them and told them they were lucky they did not breach my door. Fall 1982 Ventura Ca. Most of the time 911 does a great job but every once in a while you just got to think for your self. BTW I got to pay for the damages to the door.

That illuminates the pluses and minuses of using scripts in handling 911 calls. The procedures are normally time tested to work in the mass majority of situations to keep things as less confusing as possible for all involved.

That being said, they do have a tendency to fail the "extenuating circumstances" test from time to time.

Its a human system, created by humans and implemented by humans for dealing WITH humans. Its not going to be perfect.

Good job with thinking on your feet and listening to that little voice in the back of your head screaming at the top of its lungs to not go outside.

....but unless you got that voice screaming at you about a direction that a 911 operator or responding officer is attempting to give you, your probably better off following the direction.

I like how 911Boss reiterated that one of the "golden rules" of making contact with a responding officer is to not have ANYTHING in your hands. Excellent.

 

[N6ATF]

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FMCDH wrote:

Orphan wrote:

I once had a 911 person ask me to disarm and walk 400+- feet to the road to meetan officer, I declined because there were 3 guys just outside of my apt door threatening to kill me. 911 reiterated leave the gun in the apt and walk down to meet the officer. Long story short the officer finally came to the apt all three were arrested on outstanding feloney warrents. I vacated the apt and as I walked by the 3 BGs handcuffed and sitting on the curb one of the officers pointed out my 1911 to them and told them they were lucky they did not breach my door. Fall 1982 Ventura Ca. Most of the time 911 does a great job but every once in a while you just got to think for your self. BTW I got to pay for the damages to the door.

That illuminates the pluses and minuses of using scripts in handling 911 calls. The procedures are normally time tested to work in the mass majority of situations to keep things as less confusing as possible for all involved.

That being said, they do have a tendency to fail the "extenuating circumstances" test from time to time.

Its a human system, created by humans and implemented by humans for dealing WITH humans. Its not going to be perfect.

Good job with thinking on your feet and listening to that little voice in the back of your head screaming at the top of its lungs to not go outside.

....but unless you got that voice screaming at you about a direction that a 911 operator or responding officer is attempting to give you, your probably better off following the direction.

I like how 911Boss reiterated that one of the "golden rules" of making contact with a responding officer is to not have ANYTHING in your hands. Excellent.

Even an open book? An aluminum can held to your mouth? Yes, very threatening. Those papercuts and soda stains can be DEADLY.

 

[killchain]

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N6ATF wrote:

FMCDH wrote:

Orphan wrote:

I once had a 911 person ask me to disarm and walk 400+- feet to the road to meetan officer, I declined because there were 3 guys just outside of my apt door threatening to kill me. 911 reiterated leave the gun in the apt and walk down to meet the officer. Long story short the officer finally came to the apt all three were arrested on outstanding feloney warrents. I vacated the apt and as I walked by the 3 BGs handcuffed and sitting on the curb one of the officers pointed out my 1911 to them and told them they were lucky they did not breach my door. Fall 1982 Ventura Ca. Most of the time 911 does a great job but every once in a while you just got to think for your self. BTW I got to pay for the damages to the door.

That illuminates the pluses and minuses of using scripts in handling 911 calls. The procedures are normally time tested to work in the mass majority of situations to keep things as less confusing as possible for all involved.

That being said, they do have a tendency to fail the "extenuating circumstances" test from time to time.

Its a human system, created by humans and implemented by humans for dealing WITH humans. Its not going to be perfect.

Good job with thinking on your feet and listening to that little voice in the back of your head screaming at the top of its lungs to not go outside.

....but unless you got that voice screaming at you about a direction that a 911 operator or responding officer is attempting to give you, your probably better off following the direction.

I like how 911Boss reiterated that one of the "golden rules" of making contact with a responding officer is to not have ANYTHING in your hands. Excellent.

Even an open book? An aluminum can held to your mouth? Yes, very threatening. Those papercuts and soda stains can be DEADLY.

"Oh, I almost forgot in the craziness of someone breaking into my home that I was drinking a Pepsi and reading my Cheaper than Dirt catalog! Better not forget them when I go outside to meet the armed police that are here to protect me from a home invasion."

Come on. That was a lacking rebuke, N6ATF. -_-

911Boss, great post. Very informed. The one time I had to do the 9-1-1, they asked me if I was armed, I told them yes. And, imagine that, I met the police with my hands empty. And last time I checked, I still have all of my guns.

Went pretty smooth... I didn't get my ass busted up or weed planted on me. I KNOW I KNOW it happens all the time, I must be extremely lucky! -_-

 

[Jeff Hayes]

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Clarification I went out to meet the Police emptyhanded after the BGs had met the police, I had moved out of the apartment and was cleaning it to get my deposit back when this happened. The Police told me to get my stuff and advised me not come back, all I had in the apt was a vacume cleaner and some cleaning supplies and of course the 1911. Now days the Ventura Police would take the 1911 and I woud be lucky to get it back. The VPD allowed me to carry it to the truck and I cleared it at the door in sight of the VPD and BGs before I drove off.



911 Boss's post was very good and applies 99% of the time I just wanted to share this just to show that sometimes the system does not work.

 

[Jeff Hayes]

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edited for Double tap

 

[911Boss]

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N6ATF wrote:

Even an open book? An aluminum can held to your mouth? Yes, very threatening. Those papercuts and soda stains can be DEADLY.

Go back and read the post. "...something mistaken for a weapon".

Yes, open books and soda cans can be very deadly when due to lighting and shadows they can't be identified for what they are and only outlines or shapes are seen. Add in careless movement and a lack of following directions, and it isn't unheard of for them to be confused or misidentified by someone who is experiencing an adrenalin dump.

Personally, I would rather avoid any confusion and limit the number of holes in my exterior to the seven OEM ones than to be well hydrated and leaking those fluids from a couple of recently added orifices.

And before you go off about how cops should do better and not make mistakes, there are lots of homeowners and other non-LEO folks who have made the same mistake and shot someone when they misidentified what the person was carrying.

Of course none of this will be a concernonce we find Utopia, but until we get there, I will stick with "bettersafe than sorry".

 

[McX]

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[911Boss]

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Orphan wrote:

I once had a 911 person ask me to disarm and walk 400+- feet to the road to meetan officer, I declined because there were 3 guys just outside of my apt door threatening to kill me. 911 reiterated leave the gun in the apt and walk down to meet the officer. Long story short the officer finally came to the apt all three were arrested on outstanding feloney warrents. I vacated the apt and as I walked by the 3 BGs handcuffed and sitting on the curb one of the officers pointed out my 1911 to them and told them they were lucky they did not breach my door. Fall 1982 Ventura Ca. Most of the time 911 does a great job but every once in a while you just got to think for your self. BTW I got to pay for the damages to the door.

Did you know the guys were right outside your door? Did the 9-1-1 Call Receiver know it?

We would absolutely NOT tell someone to go outside under those circumstances if that info was known. I can't ever imagine an instance where we would tell someone to come out if we did not have an officer right outside with the door in view.

On prowler calls we generally make a point of telling people to stay inside and NOT go out when the see the cops arrive since they are going to check the perimeter first. After they have cleared the outside, they will ask for us to send the person out.

We generally do ask people to come out on the calls where someone thinks there might be someone in their house. Cops would like to know before they go in that all the "good guys" are outside. In some instances though it is better for them to stay put and have the cops come to them, all the more reason to stay on the phone so we have continuous communications.

 

[911Boss]

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FMCDH wrote:

That illuminates the pluses and minuses of using scripts in handling 911 calls. The procedures are normally time tested to work in the mass majority of situations to keep things as less confusing as possible for all involved.

That being said, they do have a tendency to fail the "extenuating circumstances" test from time to time.

I don't know of any agency that uses scripts in handling police calls. No way you could ever have enough to cover everything. We do have our SOPs, there are somethings you always do and somethigns you never do, but the lions share is determined based on the specifics of the call and what is happening at the time. A lot of it is thinking on your feet and working through the problem.

That is a big part of what can make the job so difficult, getting a quick read on the person involved and how to connect and communicate with them, having an understanding of the situation, the location, and the other elements.

Scripts are used in medical calls due to the standardized treatment protocols, and have been very effective there.